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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:07 am 
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s1m0n wrote:
david_h wrote:
Isn't is still current?

It's no longer uncontested, but it's still the majority attitude.

I meant current as an expression rather accepted as basis for conflict management.

Personally, as with the logic of the OP, I think it's a good way of raising the suggestion that ignoring the abuse might be an option and suggesting to the abuser that they are wasting their time (even if it really does hurt).

I chipped in here mainly because I thought the ytliek's "Bully!" interjection had been allowed to pass by. I think s1m0n has now covered that.

At the other end of the scale, I guess I grew up in a culture were 'slagging', in the sense of the exchange of friendly insults, was recognise for what it was. Moving into a more cosmopolitan environment I soon learned not to do it because of misunderstandings. Now, I know there is a danger of building stereotypes based on first encounters, but every single person who I accidentally offended was from the left hand side of the pond. Round here (as the first page of this thread illustrates) it doesn't seem to be a problem. Were my first impressions wrong or is it that you folks are more familiar with, say, Irish culture?

( and so as not to disappoint Nano. Who ? :-? )


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 2:13 am 
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Oh yes. And how often does one have to top up the wine glass up again and spend the evening loafing on the internet rather than doing something useful, or playing tunes, before 'lazy drunk' becomes a viable description?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:51 am 
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david_h wrote:
I meant current as an expression rather accepted as basis for conflict management.


Damned if I know, but what difference would that make? The important issue isn't the aphorisms people recite, it's how people treat each other.

And majority culture hasn't shifted an inch from "sticks and stones...."

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:35 am 
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david_h wrote:
I chipped in here mainly because I thought the ytliek's "Bully!" interjection had been allowed to pass by.

It passed by on my part because, left as I was with just that one word alone, I honestly didn't know what he was trying to say.

david_h wrote:
... every single person who I accidentally offended was from the left hand side of the pond. Round here (as the first page of this thread illustrates) it doesn't seem to be a problem. Were my first impressions wrong or is it that you folks are more familiar with, say, Irish culture?

I would say your first impressions were right. I've heard this before many a time, and it has to be due to unfamiliarity, pure and simple. As to Yanks on this site being more familiar, I would say that's also right. And not necessarily just familiar with Irish culture, but the whole shebang of you, floating around there on your islands. In certain ways, at certain times, both English-speaking sides of the Pond are very different from each other communication-wise. If you're not familiar, there's much the unwashed Yank can misunderstand. I also happen to know from personal experience that the risk of misunderstanding colloquial speech cuts both ways. The exchanges on this website have done more for my cultural understanding than I could have gotten short of pulling up stakes and sailing East to live where they drive on the wrong side of the road. :wink:

Joking aside, I hope the benefits here for cultural understanding have been mutual. :)

But this brings us back again to the OP. It's too easy to assume that since both parties nominally speak the same language, each will know what the other means. That presumption is a big mistake that leads to taking offense and flying off the handle over a misunderstanding. Better to remember you're in a foreign land (or at least in a foreign presence), smile quizzically, and say, "I beg your pardon? Just so's you know, where I come from that's actually an insult, and I'm sure you didn't mean that." If insult was meant, you'll know soon enough. If not, you'll probably go together and laugh over a pint (or the e-quivalent thereof). Curiosity: there lies the road to understanding.

Of course that's all very easy to say. It takes some work. But if the end result is worth it to you, so is keeping at it.

david_h wrote:
( and so as not to disappoint Nano. Who ? :-? )

I'm afraid you've lost me, there.

Between you and ytliek, I must be thick indeed.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
david_h wrote:
( and so as not to disappoint Nano. Who ? :-? )

I'm afraid you've lost me, there.


Nanohedron wrote:
...having encountered Millennials who don't know who Grace Slick is...


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Ah.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Slick

... Just in case you're not pulling my leg and have forgotten that Google is your friend. :wink:

david_h wrote:
Oh yes. And how often does one have to top up the wine glass up again and spend the evening loafing on the internet rather than doing something useful, or playing tunes, before 'lazy drunk' becomes a viable description?

To repeat: just because it's provable, it doesn't mean it's worth saying.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 10:51 am 
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Here's something that I find odd and useless: Two people are having a disagreement and one says, "I am offended by your statement," as if it matters. Self-reference like that has nothing to do with truth or facts or right and wrong.

Note that I mark a difference between saying "I am offended by what you say," and "What you say is offensive." Maybe it's too fine a point for most to bother with, but I think the self-reference in the prior example is an indulgence of the ego that attempts to knock the focus of the discussion off track. It's kind of cheap, actually. The latter statement presents an argument that is grist for the mill; the former is merely mirror-gazing. I think that if it doesn't contribute real substance, people should leave themselves out of an argument; in any case, saying we're offended, as if it matters, is an example that we exalt ourselves a little too much these days.

YMMV.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:18 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
david_h wrote:
I chipped in here mainly because I thought the ytliek's "Bully!" interjection had been allowed to pass by.

It passed by on my part because, left as I was with just that one word alone, I honestly didn't know what he was trying to say.

Between you and ytliek, I must be thick indeed.

Apologies for the unintended sniper shot. I no sooner said the word bully and immediately got distracted elsewhere with events... kids and music (neither mine).

I was headed into bully pragmatically and realized that on a forum such as this, across the pond issues here and there references simultaneously opens the pond to interpretations from a wider audience culturally to anyone on this forum or hearing about a topic on this forum. Yes, I think the bullying has been covered above in threads well enough.

Back to offended... we're connected and we each bring our own totality to the connection, whether having a good day or a bad day, the moment of complexity is here upon us in an emerging network culture. Just using the phrase lazy drunk opens the universe from a specific situation to a generality that wreaks with interpretive understandings.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:53 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
... Self-reference like that has nothing to do with truth or facts or right and wrong...

Could it be a way of flagging up that the disagreement is progressing in such a way that emotion is hindering the debate over "truth or facts or right and wrong"?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:00 pm 
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david_h wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
... Self-reference like that has nothing to do with truth or facts or right and wrong...

Could it be a way of flagging up that the disagreement is progressing in such a way that emotion is hindering the debate over "truth or facts or right and wrong"?

Although I think I understand, I'm not 100% sure about your use of the term "flagging up". Could you expand on what you're saying here?

ytliek wrote:
Apologies for the unintended sniper shot. I no sooner said the word bully and immediately got distracted elsewhere with events... kids and music (neither mine).

Ah, thanks. No worries. :)

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 3:21 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
I'm not 100% sure about your use of the term "flagging up". Could you expand on what you're saying here?
Usage more or less as here: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... lag-sth-up - "mention it so that people know about it".

It would rely on the other person recognising that it was a hint, for example, that the other party, or both parties, could calm down and be more rational.

It - being offended - could be untrue of course.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 4:19 pm 
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david_h wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
I'm not 100% sure about your use of the term "flagging up". Could you expand on what you're saying here?
Usage more or less as here: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/diction ... lag-sth-up - "mention it so that people know about it".

It would rely on the other person recognising that it was a hint, for example, that the other party, or both parties, could calm down and be more rational.

It - being offended - could be untrue of course.

That's what I thought, thanks.

Yes, I suppose it could serve for that, if you mean on a conscious level. It's just that I don't see it as likely. I've been called rude more than once for simply disagreeing with someone or for standing up for what I think is right; this is the level of discourse these days, that we call names when we're up against someone who doesn't share our opinion. So when someone says they're offended, I tend to trust that that's exactly what they mean and nothing more; it certainly flags that emotions are getting in the way, but it's about them and nothing so subtle as a way of saying, "Maybe we should cool down and take a breather." That would be for me to read by default. Usually by the time someone's "offended", in my experience things are on the brink of escalation more than anything else, and with grudges to follow. I would hope to be the cooler head.

I do know people who would register offense as a flag, but they're cooler heads themselves, and there's no mistaking their meaning if you're paying attention. Are they in the minority? Couldn't say. I don't have spirited talks with everybody. But - and I could be wrong - it just seems these days that there are a lot of thin skins out there.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:00 am 
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Nanohedron wrote:
it just seems these days that there are a lot of thin skins out there.

Was that directed at me? :swear:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:51 am 
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Paranoia, too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:49 pm 
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Or the need to find reasons to use "Smilies" even if he doesn't.

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