The first solo Violin Sonata is in G minor. Why then, is it written out throughout with a key signature of D minor?
Any musicians with a sensible answer popping through these 'ere pub doors I'll buy 'em a pint.
A question of Bach
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benhall.1
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A question of Bach
Well, I'd ask him in person if I could.
The first solo Violin Sonata is in G minor. Why then, is it written out throughout with a key signature of D minor?
Any musicians with a sensible answer popping through these 'ere pub doors I'll buy 'em a pint.
The first solo Violin Sonata is in G minor. Why then, is it written out throughout with a key signature of D minor?
Any musicians with a sensible answer popping through these 'ere pub doors I'll buy 'em a pint.
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Peter Duggan
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Re: A question of Bach
67 answers here, Ben...
http://www.violinist.com/discussion/res ... fm?ID=7448
And another (not specifically about this particular piece) here...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature#History
And, sure, it's something I've noticed quite often in baroque music too, with some plausible explanations above. Or https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=baroq ... +signature if you want more!
http://www.violinist.com/discussion/res ... fm?ID=7448
And another (not specifically about this particular piece) here...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_signature#History
And, sure, it's something I've noticed quite often in baroque music too, with some plausible explanations above. Or https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=baroq ... +signature if you want more!
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benhall.1
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Re: A question of Bach
Thanks Peter. I found that discussion on violinist.com. There are a few answers that may have some degree of truth to them, as well as, unsurprisingly, some plain ol' stupidity. And I dismiss altogether all the suggestions that it has anything to do with Dorian mode, since all the movements in this Sonata are so painstakingly tonal in nature.
Having read a few things since I posted my question, including some of the stuff you've linked to here, it looks to me as if it's simply a case of Baroque composers not being entirely consistent in their use of key signatures - even Bach! - and using partial key signatures at times. This is especially odd in this Sonata, where even a movement which is in Bb major is written with a key signature of 1 flat.
Having read a few things since I posted my question, including some of the stuff you've linked to here, it looks to me as if it's simply a case of Baroque composers not being entirely consistent in their use of key signatures - even Bach! - and using partial key signatures at times. This is especially odd in this Sonata, where even a movement which is in Bb major is written with a key signature of 1 flat.
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JCortese
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Re: A question of Bach
This is very interesting to me. I recall seeing the same thing in a Haendel opera, "Rodelinda," where the score insisted in notating something in Bb that was actually for all intents and purposes in Eb.
If you look here for the score: http://imslp.org/wiki/Rodelinda,_regina_de%27_Longobardi,_HWV_19_(Handel,_George_Frideric)
you can find it on page 58 (which is actually page 68 of the PDF). I still have no clue why this was done, but at least I feel better knowing it is not an isolated incident. But you can find Ab's all over the place, and I haven't a clue why they aren't in the key signature. After having arranged the thing a million ways for piano and harp, I can definitely confirm that it is indeed in Eb.
Still puffing and blowing away on my keyless M&E and having fun at it, BTW.
If you look here for the score: http://imslp.org/wiki/Rodelinda,_regina_de%27_Longobardi,_HWV_19_(Handel,_George_Frideric)
you can find it on page 58 (which is actually page 68 of the PDF). I still have no clue why this was done, but at least I feel better knowing it is not an isolated incident. But you can find Ab's all over the place, and I haven't a clue why they aren't in the key signature. After having arranged the thing a million ways for piano and harp, I can definitely confirm that it is indeed in Eb.
Still puffing and blowing away on my keyless M&E and having fun at it, BTW.
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kltb7777
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Re: A question of Bach
Hiya,
Now, I'm new and it has been a while since I posted on forums so if I say or do the wrong thing - apologies.
I will admit that I didn't follow the link through to what the violinists say (computer misbehaving), but for my own part as a baroque oboist who plays an awful lot of Bach and Handel in its original manuscript, this is my understanding.
Key signatures as we understand them, weren't completely codified until later in the Eighteenth Century ( ie after Bach and Handel), especially minor key signatures. It is very common for pieces in minor keys on the flat side to have one fewer flats than we are expecting as this is the 6th scale degree and is usually natural as often as it is flat, therefore it is only flattened as necessary. I don't think it is any more complicated than that. In these cases, the tonal centre is a better indicator of the key.
Hope that helps,
Kirsten
Now, I'm new and it has been a while since I posted on forums so if I say or do the wrong thing - apologies.
I will admit that I didn't follow the link through to what the violinists say (computer misbehaving), but for my own part as a baroque oboist who plays an awful lot of Bach and Handel in its original manuscript, this is my understanding.
Key signatures as we understand them, weren't completely codified until later in the Eighteenth Century ( ie after Bach and Handel), especially minor key signatures. It is very common for pieces in minor keys on the flat side to have one fewer flats than we are expecting as this is the 6th scale degree and is usually natural as often as it is flat, therefore it is only flattened as necessary. I don't think it is any more complicated than that. In these cases, the tonal centre is a better indicator of the key.
Hope that helps,
Kirsten
Re: A question of Bach
The Wikipedia article has it right. It revolves around melodic minor scales sixth tone and also in pieces like the Handel where even though in a major key the note in question (Ab) might often be raised in pitch by the half step. I think if you view key signatures as convenient shorthand for the score writer rather than indicative of key as we commonly do it makes sense.