Weeds in the garden

[Mitch]

I have a lawn.

Well ..I have a mowed collection of weeds.

For all you gardeners:

What is a "weed"?

I just spent a few hundred hours learning permaculture - and those guys reckon that weeds are "volunteer species" who have come to correct a problem.

What is your experience?

[Tor]

I generally think of weeds as "opportunistic species" rather than "volunteer species". They move in when they see easy ground with weak competition.
The exception would be during hot periods for the vegetable garden I sometimes work in in Japan: The weeds can help protect some of the vegetables and the surrounding soil from quicky drying out during the hottest/driest season.

[An Draighean]

We live out in the country, so we have no neighbours to annoy if we don't have a manicured garden. I mow whatever comes up, maybe 6-10 feet around the house, then the trees start. At one time, there was planted grass up to the house (not planted by me). I don't water it either - whatever grows there must make do with whatever rainfall we get. This year it has been lots of rain, and my pipes are happy! I for one do not wish to spend my spare time doing yard work; I'd rather be making music.

[Tor]

It's generally not a good idea to water lawns anyway. If you do (certainly if you do it from the start) then the grass roots will stay close to the surface and will be extremely sensitive to draught. If you don't water (more than absolutely necessary to get the lawn started) then the roots will grow down (often deep down) where they will generally handle draught just fine (of course if you try to make a lawn in a region with no rain ever, like a certain Chilean desert.. then you would have to water).

I have neighbours who water the lawn all summer. When they go on holiday the lawn goes yellow as soon as there are some days without rain.. while my lawn stays green and I *never* water it.

(I learned about lawns on an agricultural research farm btw - I worked there for nine summers in my youth)

[Nanohedron]

I'm ambivalent about weeds. It's only because of cultivation that we even have the concept at all, so for me, as with most things, it's about context. The lawn of the property I live on goes back as-is to at least 1923, so there has been plenty of time for it to diversify as old lawns will do if left to their own. To me there's something right about an old lawn being not just grass, especially if it's shady; it's like moss on a stone. In addition to the usual grass, in my yard there is creeping charlie, plantain, catnip, violets, and of course clover. To the herbalist (I'm not one, strictly speaking) these are very useful plants, so I welcome or at least tolerate them; you never know when that plantain will come in handy, but it does need a bit of control. By standards of usefulness, the dandelion should also be left unmolested but I don't extend the courtesy, and this is entirely due to an upbringing where the dandelion is seen as the premier blight to a presentable lawn. I haven't been able to change that viewpoint; if it weren't for those flowers mocking me, maybe I could. If I want dandelion, I should cultivate it in a dedicated spot elsewhere, preferably in a greenhouse. My neighbor thinks otherwise, so she is welcome to her dandelions, and I don't feud over it because despite all those seeds floating around, dandelions actually spread very slowly; my last large-scale anti-dandelion mission was about five years ago and the difference between my lawn and hers, side by side, is still very clear. Yet I honor creeping charlie because it's low-lying and not showy; it's cool, soft, attractive, fragrant, and not least to me it was a bittering agent in ales before hops caught on; indeed, I prefer to call it "alewort". In the walks and parking lot I let some of the purslane be, and I like to nibble on it. Catnip already knows how to stay out of the way, so I just pick it to keep it managed (if the cat doesn't mangle it beyond help, first). So, my rationales aren't necessarily rational or consistent, and frankly I don't have a problem with that, because my sense of aesthetics is largely at play, too. If trees should sprout volunteers in unwanted places, they're slated for removal as "weeds". In the lawn proper and next to the building, spurges, thistles, kochia and nightshade are always "weeds". In the far periphery I might give them a chance, but spurges and kochia always get my baleful eye. Don't like 'em at all. I like nettles, though, so long as I don't have to go through them.

[Peter Duggan]

What is a "weed"?

A plant in the wrong place.

For me, as with most things, it's about context.

Absolutely! And, regarding 'grass' (nothing in my garden I'd class as a 'lawn'), so long as it's basically green, can be mowed and knows its boundaries, that's good enough.

[chas]

I live in the 'burbs, so I do have neighbors to cheese off. But there are a lot of so-called "weeds" that we like, so we cheese the neighbors off anyway. We try to keep the alien-invasives under control, but then, those were planted on purpose by the original owner of our house, and our neighbors can't be bothered to strip the English ivy from their trees, and there's no controlling that once it's six feet tall and starts spreading seeds. The previous owner of our house planted Houttuynia and pachysandra. We've put down landscaping fabric with a leaf pile on top of it, and the houttuynia actually grew up right through it. If you mow it or till it, it just makes babies.

OTOH, we love our dandelions, milkweed (sadly very few butterflies the last several years), violets, thistles; I especially love fleabane; my wife especially loves spice bush and pokeweed. Except for the milkweed, all of these are edible, and we eat them (be careful and don't eat pokeweed unless you're very familiar with the proper methods). We also have medicinal weeds, most notably common plantain, which has saved me many trips to the doctor since I seem susceptible to skin infections -- probably something to do with working outside a lot and not noticing that I've cut myself till hours later, or just can't be bothered to wash and dress a cut.

So my definition of a weed is an alien invasive, everything else is just plants.

[Nanohedron]

Apparently the name "fleabane" covers a lot of ground. Which one did you mean? Not sure if I'm familiar with it.

So my definition of a weed is an alien invasive, everything else is just plants.

I imagine that leaves you in a bit of a quandary about your dandelions.

[Tunborough]

So my definition of a weed is an alien invasive, everything else is just plants.

Agreed. Around here, that means garlic mustard and buckthorn.

A few years back, we had to dig up an entire raised bed because the bindweed got out of control; that seems to have done the job. Lovely flowers, but it didn't play nice with others.

[s1m0n]

Groundcover that your neighbour doesn't like. Freeform polyculture.

[chas]

Apparently the name "fleabane" covers a lot of ground. Which one did you mean? Not sure if I'm familiar with it.

So my definition of a weed is an alien invasive, everything else is just plants.

I imagine that leaves you in a bit of a quandary about your dandelions.

Wiki lists many dandelion species as native to North America. Not sure what's in my yard, but it is good in small amounts in salads. Plus there's a highway median in front of my house, so the only way to get rid of them is to put massive amounts of chemicals on the yard, which my neighbors are willing to do, but I'm not. Probably much to their dismay.

I'm not sure what fleabane is in my yard, but it's similar to daisy fleabane, which I know is widespread in the northeast. It's pretty and smells wonderful, although it blooms for a very short period. It makes a tea quite reminiscent of chamomile, and I think my wife has found it in herbal medicine books, but I can't remember what it's good for. Probably the same stuff as chamomile.

[Nanohedron]

Wiki lists many dandelion species as native to North America.

Seriously? I had no idea. And here I believed the story that the dandelion was introduced from across the Atlantic.

...the only way to get rid of them is to put massive amounts of chemicals on the yard, which my neighbors are willing to do, but I'm not. Probably much to their dismay.

I use an uprooting device. My neighbor likes that because she's an 80-year-old hippie radical who wears purple and warned me to not use chemicals if I planned to stay on her good side, but poison-free is what I prefer anyway, so we're good. Usually lawn weeding's a project that I set aside a couple of days (and a Zen state) for, but these days it seems like the slaughter has made its mark; there's not near as much to tackle as there used to be, although a new class of invaders has made its presence known: volunteer trees, mostly. I'll be poking at them to work out my tactics for best mass annihilation.

I'm not sure what fleabane is in my yard, but ... It makes a tea quite reminiscent of chamomile, and I think my wife has found it in herbal medicine books, but I can't remember what it's good for. Probably the same stuff as chamomile.

Aha! There's a plant of similar properties around here, Matricaria discoidea, but odd because its flowers look only like little green clubs. It gets called mayweed or wild chamomile by the few who need to call it something. Same pineapple-y scent, and IIRC is also good for the same stuff as chamomile proper. A favorite of mine, too.

[david_h]

A local gardner gave me the tip of putting a pinch of nitrate fertiliser into the centre of the rosette of dandelion leaves. Apparently it causes the the root to grow dramatically so that the top part is forced up from the ground and can be grabbed and pulled out.

Still a chemical, but a small quantity of one that most would regard as safe on the lawn.

I never tried it though.

[Nanohedron]

...those [permaculture] guys reckon that weeds are "volunteer species" who have come to correct a problem.

Don't get me wrong; I'm all for approaches like permaculture. But weeds "volunteer" to "correct a problem"? That's a bit softheaded and smells of New-Age pablum for sale, if you ask me (and I'm another old hippie who can speak in paisley with the best of 'em). Otherwise, to my mind permaculture IS a legitimate paradigm to work from, if it's the paradigm that suits you. My first question is what are your purposes? If your goal is a perfect, grassy, weed-free monoculture lawn and you are given to the industriousness it takes to get one, then your choices are as clear as they are stark. If you seek an holistic approach because of your philosophy, then go permaculture, by all means. But if you are simply lazy and want a rationalisation for it, you can always pick on permaculture as your justification, but don't kid yourself that anyone will necessarily believe you. Me, I'm somewhere in the middle.

[benhall.1]

I always understood that the plain definition of a weed is "a plant growing where one doesn't want it to grow". I don't think there's anything more to it.