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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:19 pm 
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I wondered what a Juggalo was. Just as I suspected. I hope there's a temporary override for any scooter governor.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:27 pm 
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This is their universal symbol (that's a cleaver he's wielding. Looks like fun). Juggalos are to Insane Clown Posse what Deadheads are to The Grateful Dead. I hear they're actually quite pleasant and even unassuming people (they supposedly all drink Faygo as part of the Juggalo identity. A soft drink brand, fercryinoutloud, and a very obscure one it is, too. Seems a bit tepid to me...), but with a logo like that, one still must wonder what dark stirrings lurk beneath the surface.

kkrell wrote:
I hope there's a temporary override for any scooter governor.

I do think speed ordinances and governor limits should take into consideration, as far as they can, the potential need to escape a threat, actually. Of course top speeds like 18 mph are probably unnecessary for the purpose, but if a healthy pedestrian can run to escape a threat, why not the same for a scooter? After all, running's not an option for me. Not that I anticipate becoming a target - thankfully, I am in a position to be able to pick my battles - but this is just to put the idea out there.

Ha. That's what I'll say to the officer: "I was being chased by Juggalos." "Jugga-what?" "Are they gone?"

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 6:26 am 
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Back to electric vs. mechanical bike: Yesterday afternoon I had the direct comparison, when I cycled on my $10-ten-speed from the 80s or thereabouts (when gearlevers were still down on the frame instead of up on the handlebar) next to my friend on her city-style e-bike (i. e. not a high-performance bike for athletes). Uphill she had the advantage, I had to pedal much harder. But downhill I could freewheel when she had to pedal a bit in order to keep up. I had always suspected that there's more resistance in e-bikes than there should be (when mine came out of the shop, the pedals wouldn't turn freely - I took it back to have them greased), but I was still a bit surprised to see it so clearly.

Of course, I did not check the tire pressure on my friend's bike, which might be all the explanation needed (mine should have been around 80 psi, as I had inflated to 87 not too long ago). Or maybe it has something to do with steel frame and fork (mine) vs. alumunium (my friend's) - aluminium is stiffer. Way back when I was a teenager and began to read book about bicycles it was already said that the old bikes (from the 50s) were better, because they could make use of the bumps in the road - sort of store the energy and go faster. Not sure whether that makes any technical sense whatsoever, but I was always happy to ride the bike I had inherited from my grandmother, despite it's single speed, S-curve step-through frame and iffy front brake... It rode beautifully!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 8:16 am 
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Nanohedron wrote:
I'll only use the scooter's top speed to escape from hungry bears, marauding Juggalos, or the like. I promise. :wink:


Does the twin cities have a lot of hungry bears and marauding Juggalos?

Kade1301 wrote:
Back to electric vs. mechanical bike: Yesterday afternoon I had the direct comparison, when I cycled on my $10-ten-speed from the 80s or thereabouts (when gearlevers were still down on the frame instead of up on the handlebar) next to my friend on her city-style e-bike (i. e. not a high-performance bike for athletes). Uphill she had the advantage, I had to pedal much harder. But downhill I could freewheel when she had to pedal a bit in order to keep up. I had always suspected that there's more resistance in e-bikes than there should be (when mine came out of the shop, the pedals wouldn't turn freely - I took it back to have them greased), but I was still a bit surprised to see it so clearly.


Interesting. I do recall my father-in-law complaining about such with his e-bike and complaining that he wishes it had more higher gears available.

I think it is possible that I need a better mechanical bike than the one I am currently borrowing. I had borrowed a different bike a few years ago and found the gears to be more intuitive to use than this current bike and I found no difficulty completing a 45minute bike to the University. However, that was outside of the city of Dallas and not the hills of Ohio... regardless, I don't feel like I have enough gears on my current bike and I don't feel like I am entirely using them to my best advantage.

I did try my father-in-law's e-bike yesterday, I didn't try all the different e-settings (I simply forgot), but I did enjoy being able to go 20mph up a hill without effort. That was nice. :love: I'm not sure that I'm worried about going downhill fast. I also tend to be rather paranoid: thinking that I might fall off of bridges, fall off the bike, or get chased by Juggalos.
...At this point, I don't ride for recreation, I just ride for transportation. But now that I say that, I remember riding for recreation when I had the really nice bike with good gears. Maybe if I got a good mechanical bike I'd ride for recreation again.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 2:02 pm 
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AaronFW wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
I'll only use the scooter's top speed to escape from hungry bears, marauding Juggalos, or the like. I promise. :wink:

Does the twin cities have a lot of hungry bears and marauding Juggalos?

Oh, my goodness, yes. Scads of 'em, and they're peevish on a good day. You'd think they'd eat and chop each other up at least some of the time, but no. It's like they've got this gentleman's agreement or something, so no rest for us. And if you ever hear the words "a murder of crows" around here, trust me: run for cover, because ours go right for the eyes. Put simply, even getting groceries is going to be an ultimate-stakes contact sport. It's Armageddon out there. But we console ourselves with the belief that along with our hellish, bone-breaking winters and mosquitoes the size of parakeets, it keeps out the riffraff. It's not all bad; at least we have recycling.

I see that in the meantime over in California, there's a public anti-e-scooter backlash:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... ar-BBLLykO

It should be noted first that this is in the main about rentals, and unlike here, they've had over a year for this to come to a head. The reasons appear chiefly twofold: One is most understandable and brought on by the users themselves who abandon rented units wherever they like, not even left propped up but lying down, for all the world like litter. Now, would you like having to live with that? Didn't think so. Me neither. I've seen a foretaste of it here, too, and I totally get the objection to it. There's no question that the rental companies are at the root of the problem due to a business model that endorses the practice: basically, it's "Leave it where you like; we'll come and get it (what's unsaid is, 'sooner of later - who knows when')." Apparently there's GPS involved. And indeed, what could be more attractive to the rental customer? They're not going to see retrieval promptness as any of their concern. I also think the fallout might have been predicted, but at least we've got hindsight. The other reason, though, is less easy for me to credit: There is a faction that sees e-scooters as part of a spreading gentrification that is suffocating local surfing culture. I would have assumed the surfing world to be robust enough to withstand the pressure, but if it actually isn't, then I can understand this objection up to a point, but my understanding ends where the vandalism begins. In environmental terms alone, burning battery-powered scooters and throwing them into the sea are hardly commendable choices, even less so when you're fueled by an eco-friendly breakfast of granola and kombucha. The irony, as they say, abounds. Not that I'm unsympathetic, but if surfing culture can't hold its own, then instead of trashing property, perhaps it should look to itself for the reasons why. Just a thought.

The really unfortunate part is that by extension, responsible owners will be seen as part of the problem, simply because they're riding.

It's hard for me to foresee a culturally-based backlash in my neck of the woods, but a backlash at irresponsible use is very understandable, and I would totally be on board with that. The solution with Big Rental, to me, is clear. I can make all the pious noises I want about responsible use and good manners, but we all know far too well the value of that currency these days. And even if the users did prop up their left-behind scooters all nice and tidy, they're still abandoned scooters, and the more abandoned scooters, the more the whole thing looks like a blight, and when they're lying down and in the way, it's an even bigger blight yet. I get it. So the only answer is that those rental companies must amend their business model, because the present one only encourages customer indifference to their impositions on others and to the landscape; instead, when they're done with their fun, let the customer leave the unit at any designated drop-off point or face a penalty on their credit card, and preferably a stiff one. $25 sounds about right. Without such a change those companies may very well have no future here in the Twin Cities. To be honest, I would have no objection whatsoever if the corporate likes of Lime and Bird were prohibited here should they prove unwilling to change; if there are to be rentals, then let them be got at your local mom-and-pop shops. I'm very parochial that way, and make no apologies for it.

It's this very eventuality that has been part of my reasoning in wanting a foldable unit, which I can keep reasonably out of everyone's way when not in use. I really think it's a very important consideration for those who would own for purposes other than recreation.

I think I'm about ready to order one. Next comes the hate.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:26 pm 
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I think I'm beginning to understand the rental concept... There's a similar thing in French cities, but for mechanical bikes, and it's run by the cities themselves: The city buys the bikes and has them locked in in certain areas spread around the city - each bike locked into its stand. Users pay a yearly fee and get a card with which they can remove the bike from its stand. And the bike must go into another stand after the ride (I don't know the consequences when it doesn't, but it must be effective because the French are not known for order and discipline).

However, for the life of me I can't understand why e-scooters would be opposed to surfboards...

AaronFW, yeah, try out as many means of transportation as you can, and then decide what you like best. Recreational use will probably follow - or you'll decide that there's really no need to ride on the weekend as well and you'll take up swimming or rollerskating instead ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:51 pm 
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Kade1301 wrote:
I think I'm beginning to understand the rental concept... There's a similar thing in French cities, but for mechanical bikes, and it's run by the cities themselves: The city buys the bikes and has them locked in in certain areas spread around the city - each bike locked into its stand. Users pay a yearly fee and get a card with which they can remove the bike from its stand. And the bike must go into another stand after the ride (I don't know the consequences when it doesn't, but it must be effective because the French are not known for order and discipline).

Yep, we have a local setup similar to the French here called Nice Ride. Don't know offhand if it's exactly city-owned, but it's certainly approved and in association with the city, which no doubt gets its cut one way or the other. It's basically the same overall rental model as you describe. I don't know the consequences for not playing by the rules, either, but it must be working here, too, because it's been a few years now and no one's ever seriously complained about them. I see them used quite a bit. They're hard to miss, being sort of clunky and an eye-burning shade of green.

So the model's already there to be imitated by the Scooter Barons, right in front of their faces. Resistance to it is most likely the meat of the issue.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:06 pm 
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Okay, finally caved in and made a choice over at Amazon. Something called Cellot; despite the Catalan-looking name, it's made in China. In any case it's being delivered from Washington state, so the shipping is free. Seems to cover enough of everything I'm looking for: brand-new, foldable, 14.4 pounds, carbon fiber (yes, please), battery charge is good up to 15.5 miles or better, same number for top average mph, lights front and back, and it comes with a sturdy-looking carrying bag for added discreetness and manageability. Those, when available, are usually sold separately; I wasn't really planning to get one, so it's a nice extra. Battery included. And you don't have to start with a kick to get this one going, as is the way with some models. I'm sort of neutral on that. I also found out that you assemble it yourself (some brands, OTOH, come pre-assembled), so that'll get me familiar enough for future repairs. Sure, I'd like to have paid less, but I found it moderate for the market, and this is really more of an investment. Not sure what the top upcline grade is, but a 15 to 20 degree range is common. It can be used without the power as a regular kick-scooter, so that's nice to know. What's definitely lacking for me, though, is a secondary lock at the back fender when folded, but OTOH you don't see a lot of that for some reason, which I find curious; it's a darned good idea, after all, and a feature that I think should be more standard, because it greatly reduces side-to-side strain on the front lock by stabilizing everything when folded up. But with reasonable care, this omission might not be a big issue. There's some exposed wiring roughly similar to what you see in the pic I posted; not my first choice, but it's minimal and not nearly as snaggable as some I've seen. Battery charge time is 4 hrs, but I'll work around that. I'm sure I'll find other nits to pick.

As to overall battery life, Cellot uses LG batteries, so I'm not too worried about quality. Battery life is generally translated in terms of the number of charging cycles it can be expected to last, and for this one, 500 cycles is advertised; I'd like better, but it'll do. I am assured, though, that replacements will not be cheap. While I haven't looked closely into it, from what little I've seen, I believe I can expect to pay about $100 or so for a new battery.

Even with the much-needed truckload of salt, I confess to having had a positive (enough) impression of the comments section, and that certainly helped in my decision. There's one born every minute...

TBH, given the informational inconsistencies I often find among products at Amazon, I'm not super-confident about my purchase, but you have to start somewhere. The models I would really prefer are all out of stock, every one of them! But this one will be fine if it works as advertised. The funny thing is that I'm already starting to despise e-scooters, myself. :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:17 am 
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Congratulations on having made a decision! I wish you the best of luck with shipping, assembly and running of your Cellot!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Thanks. But who knows? Maybe I'll join the fold and throw mine into the Mississippi one day.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 9:31 pm 
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Just saw on the news that now Lime is no longer confining itself only to e-scooters here, but is going after Nice Ride with dockless rental bikes, too. At this point I don't know if they're e-bikes or strictly mechanical, but with them being the same shade of green, this is a declaration of war if ever I saw one. Knowing what I do now, I'm speaking out against the dockless rental model whenever the topic comes up, but I suspect this tiff won't be over soon.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 4:23 pm 
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Just got off the horn with someone at an electrical scooter parts supply. Their webpage showed parts for the seated kind, but they also claimed to cover a broad range of other light electric transportation, so on that bit of assurance I thought I'd check, and I must say it took a while to make myself understood, because prior to my call the poor guy had never even heard of the kind I was talking about; "electric" and "kick scooter" just weren't coming together easily for him as a concept. Apparently that's how new on the scene these things are. Once we were finally on the same page he didn't have any way to answer my questions directly, but at that point I wasn't surprised. I don't want to have to rely just on Cellot alone in case they have poor customer service or go out of business, and I assume there's a certain amount of generic interchangeability for at least some parts, particularly batteries, so that's why I'm nosing around. Might take a while for these suppliers to catch up.

For service purposes we're probably going to eventually need clearer terms than just "scooter" in order to readily distinguish between the seated and standing kind, methinks. Really, they're apples and oranges, and if you specifically mean an orange and it matters, calling it "fruit" can only serve to waste everyone's time.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 7:05 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
For service purposes we're probably going to eventually need clearer terms than just "scooter" in order to readily distinguish between the seated and standing kind, methinks.


I agree. I was rather confused by your original post, so I held my mouth closed for a while. The picture looked like a foot scooter and I couldn't tell from the thread title.

My original thoughts: "Uh... Is that 'Electric-Foot-Scooter Oracle'? Or 'Electric Foot-Scooter Oracle' (electric oracle, i.e. the internet.) Are Electric-Foot-Scooters a thing?"


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:34 pm 
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AaronFW wrote:
Nanohedron wrote:
For service purposes we're probably going to eventually need clearer terms than just "scooter" in order to readily distinguish between the seated and standing kind, methinks.

I agree. I was rather confused by your original post, so I held my mouth closed for a while. The picture looked like a foot scooter and I couldn't tell from the thread title.

My original thoughts: "Uh... Is that 'Electric-Foot-Scooter Oracle'? Or 'Electric Foot-Scooter Oracle' (electric oracle, i.e. the internet.) Are Electric-Foot-Scooters a thing?"

That's why I posted the pic, because I just knew there was going to be some confusion without it. And a fat lot of good that did; I suppose it was easy to miss the wire and its significance at first glance.

In case you didn't know, "Consulting the [Subject] Oracle" has long been a signature formulaic heading here (it goes way back; Dale started the tradition, IIRC) for Pub topics where we need info and are hoping experienced people can help. It's been most frequently used for computer or other tech questions, but not exclusively. The heading isn't a requirement, just an example of the lively Chiff culture we'd have seen more of when the Pub was far busier back in the day. I guess I'm still living it. So anyway, the Oracle is: you guys. I would never hope you're posting for this while in an electric condition, whatever that may be, because obviously I need you more clearheaded than twirly. :wink:

If ever you're confused and aren't sure waiting will reveal the answer, by all means, don't hold your tongue - ask. Me, anybody, publicly, privately - doesn't matter. Whatever works for you. I guess I can understand why people might hesitate with me, because I'm known to be a bit ... irrepressible, let's call it, especially if I think you're asking in jest (your question about bears and Juggalos, or where would I put my harp, for example). I suppose it can be a bit much for some. But for me, not taking the ball and running with it is like asking a kid to ignore the candy: ain't gonna happen. Nano likes to play. But if your question is serious, so long as it's obvious to me (it usually is), I'll always answer seriously enough in kind, just as I am doing right now, and I'm confident this is true of most members here, so I'm not unique in that regard (most regards, actually, come to think of it). I might still throw in some humor - it's hard to resist - and I might rib you, but I will never dismiss, belittle or mock you in malice. Ever. None of us should, and we take a very dim view indeed of that behavior around here. It's a matter of respect. So Chiff with confidence, and consider my wild ramblings to be merely a small, if head-scratching, aspect of the bigger show. For the sake of community peace, I do try to keep my loopier moments confined to the Pub. :)

If you need an explanation as to why I am the way I am, just tell yourself it must be the lutefisk. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2018 5:12 am 
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Nanohedron wrote:
Just saw on the news that now Lime is no longer confining itself only to e-scooters here, but is going after Nice Ride with dockless rental bikes, too. At this point I don't know if they're e-bikes or strictly mechanical, but with them being the same shade of green, this is a declaration of war if ever I saw one. Knowing what I do now, I'm speaking out against the dockless rental model whenever the topic comes up, but I suspect this tiff won't be over soon.


"Dockless" means people can drop them anywhere? I suppose I would actually prefer that, though I haven't yet understood where those scooters and bikes are picked up. And of course, I prefer to have my own, which is there when I need it - I VERY rarely have any desire to be (temporarily) rid of my bike (mainly when I'd like to to use public transport that doesn't accept them).

And I wonder why so many people buy their car - which costs a lot of money to purchase and quite a bit to keep in running order, not to mention fuel and possibly taxes and parking fees, but seem willing to rent an electric scooter (from what you write about the success of the electric scooter rental companies) or a bicycle (from what I see in the cities around me). When they are between fairly reasonable and dirt cheap to purchase and maintenance cost is (hopefully - I cross my fingers for you!) negligible. So to me it would make much more sense to own a bike/scooter and rent a car when necessary, at least as long as one lives in a city with reasonable public transport (as I don't I won't get rid of my car just yet...) People are strange, sometimes...

Regarding spare parts: With a bit of luck Cellot does not actually produce any of the electric/electronic (or even mechanical) parts and you can get them directly from the manufacturer, the name of which, with another bit of luck, would be written somewhere on the part. Because I'm doubtful whether a lot of standardization has happened yet across scooter brands... Besides there's probably so much happening in the development of them that your model might be hopelessly outdated when it starts to break down and you'll want to buy a new one anyway. Ride and see...


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