It is currently Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:43 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 
 Post subject: Clogging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:34 pm
Posts: 367
"About the clogging (and not to hijack the thread) I see that I did mention that aspect. About these clogging whistles being fine when 'warmed up' I'll say that an Overton I had, which I clogged in a minute or two of playing, clogged just as quickly when I played it after it was sitting in my car on a warm day... the whistle was warm to the touch, well over 100 degrees I would say. How much more 'warmed up' could a whistle get??

Richard - My experience with clogging is that the toothpaste treatment really makes a significant difference. Oxide building up inside the whistle causes an increase in buildup of condensation as the particulates have something to cling to. Too bad you didn't have the chance to do a before and after with those whistles.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 11:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2014 4:08 pm
Posts: 8
Location: Florence, SC
What is the "toothpaste treatment"?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 12:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:34 pm
Posts: 367
"The method uses toothpaste (not the gritty sort) and a filed down dampened wooden lollipop stick (not sure what you call them in the US - popsicle?) - and make sure it goes into the windway easily so it won't break off and get stuck - I guess you could use a thin plastic card too but the wood rends to pick up dirt in the grain. Work toothpaste into the windway and using the dampened stick "polish" the inside of the windway with it. Then, using a cotton bud with toothpaste on it, polish the bevel and also the wall of the block below it to prevent the build up on water on the bevel. Then rinse the whistle out with cold water."
Searching toothpaste and Colin yielded this info


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:45 pm
Posts: 18663
Location: San Diego, CA
The mega-thread we had last year on clogging and the toothpaste treatment is pretty comprehensive, and worth reading the whole thing:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=92520

_________________
Vivat diabolus in musica! MTGuru's (old) GG Clips / Blackbird Clips

Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:47 pm
Posts: 108
In the previous thread I noticed Bogman was considering how different playing styles, as opposed to just the whistle or various preparations of the whistle, make the difference between playing or disruptive clogging. http://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewtopic.php?p=1103813#p1103813

I concur; albeit anecdotically. I have only one of Colin's Overtons but I was constantly clogging the one until I changed my playing. Haven't clogged since.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:42 pm
Posts: 724
Location: Beautiful San Francisco, CA USA
I can say with absolutely certainty that the toothpaste treatment works with aluminum instruments like the Overton design. I am not a wet player but my wonderful Goldie Low D would clog on occasion. After a toothpaste treatment the problem has never returned. I'm also an old recorder player who learned long ago about "sucking back". I know ewww. But it works and it's a habit now.

I also have several other aluminum instruments of similar or same design and all have reduced clogging with the treatment. My big old Chieftain Gold was happier too.

I'm a believer.

ecohawk

_________________
"Never get one of those cheap tin whistles. It leads to much harder drugs like pipes and flutes." - anon


Last edited by ecohawk on Sun Apr 06, 2014 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 5:52 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
Posts: 4590
Location: WV to the OC
The thing about our friend Bogman is that on many occasions, on various different threads and forums, has made statements along the lines of 'whistles won't clog if played properly' suggesting that it's 'improper' playing that leads to clogging. But I've never seen him explain what he means by this, that is, say precisely what it is that these other players are doing (or not doing) which leads to clogging.

That link above is interesting because Bogman offers (for the first time I've seen) some possible explanations, such as people coming from Highland piping having more success with Overton-style (Goldie) whistles. Thing is, my first instrument was Highland pipes too! But still Overtons clog on me.

People have made statements about 'warming up' whistles to prevent their clogging, but as I've said, a whistle left in the car for hours on a hot Southern California summer day (well over 100 degrees, in other words more 'warmed up' than is possible by the human breath) clogs exactly the same as one at ordinary room temperature, in my experience.

I've owned several Overtons over the years, the first one around 1980, up now, and they all clog on me. I've owned other makes that never clog on me, same player, same environment, such as Burke and MK.

It is telling, when somebody posted a video clip of a top Irish whistle guy (was it Davey Spillane?) performing live on a Low Whistle, that he was constantly putting his finger over the windway and blowing to clear out the windway. Surely this guy knows how to play 'properly'!

In the Highland pipe world we have the issue that the reeds are strongly affected by the amount of moisture coming into the bag, and every piper knows whether he is a 'dry blower' or a 'wet blower' or somewhere in the middle. I'm a very 'wet blower' and I put out more moisture than most people, so it comes as no surprise that I will clog a whistle that somebody else may not.

I just have to pick and choose what makes of whistle I use, simple as that.

Question for people who own Goldies and Overtons both: are they similar, or different, regarding clogging? Since I've only had experience with Overtons, I'm in no position to speak to Goldies, unless they are similar in this regard.

BTW about Bogman's observation there that Scottish players usually play Goldies and MKs, and rarely Burkes, I will say that in the Highland pipe world the pipes that people choose usually depends on region, and this appears to be more about availability than the nature of the instruments. So here in the USA one often sees American makes such as Gibson, MacLellan, and Kron, but these are very rarely seen outwith the US. Likewise one doesn't often seen ABW Dunbars here, though they're common in their home country of Canada. In Scotland one sees a large number of pipes by small 'boutique' Scottish makers that one very rarely sees here in the USA.

This would make me expect to see many more Burkes being played here than elsewhere, many more MKs being played in Scotland than elsewhere.

_________________
Richard Cook
1978 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 7300
Location: Clifton Park, NY
The Ewwww factor of suck back is totally psychological. That very same moisture was in your body just moments ago, so why get squeamish about sucking it back? The technique is too valuable not to use. Many people blow into the windway to clear it, but that's just adding MORE moisture.

_________________
Got wood?
http://www.Busmanwhistles.com
Let me custom make one for you!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 7:34 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 10, 2014 3:13 pm
Posts: 49
Location: Ithaca, NY
brewerpaul wrote:
The Ewwww factor of suck back is totally psychological.


Just remember that age old whistle saying: You can suck back on your whistle, your friend can suck back on their whistle, but you can't suck back on your friends' whistle.

_________________
Owner of Hermit Hill Folk Instruments - http://www.hhfi.biz


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:15 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:45 pm
Posts: 18663
Location: San Diego, CA
AlexD wrote:
Just remember that age old whistle saying: You can suck back on your whistle, your friend can suck back on their whistle, but you can't suck back on your friends' whistle.

Wait ... I thought it was: "You can suck some of the whistles all of the time, and you can suck all of the whistle some of the time ..."

:P

_________________
Vivat diabolus in musica! MTGuru's (old) GG Clips / Blackbird Clips

Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:45 pm
Posts: 18663
Location: San Diego, CA
I have to agree with Richard (pancelt) and ecohawk about the "improper playing" thing. In my whistling experience I've played/tried at least 30 various makes and designs of whistles. And my Goldies are the only ones that have given me this particular clogging problem. I've also in the course of many years played flute, saxophone, clarinet, recorder, oboe, krummhorn, harmonica ... and think I have a pretty good handle on the parameters of breath technique and embouchure. Conversely, a number of accomplished whistlers of various backgrounds (including GHB) played my Goldies and experienced the exact same clogging as I did.

So the idea of some mysterious "proper playing" technique that eludes me and so many others is a red herring.

Of course, this was before the toothpaste treatment. After the treatment ... problem solved. It's really as simple as that. If some Goldies need a bit of extra TLC to ensure a clean, polished windway, so be it. IMO, it's little effort in order to be able to enjoy the unique Goldie sound and feel.

_________________
Vivat diabolus in musica! MTGuru's (old) GG Clips / Blackbird Clips

Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:34 pm
Posts: 367
I'd just like to add that all aluminum headed whistles with the Overton / Goldie / Kerry / Chieftain / Reviol style head are vulnerable to the oxidation buildup-clogging problem. Simple physics. Fortunately the cure is the same for all.
If you really want to view clogging in action -play any low D for a length of time by the 'quiet' method - blowing over the top of the windway - instead of into it, and you will see moisture start to build up on top of the windway - if you play long enough , as the moisture builds, you will actually hear the tone deteriorate. You can experiment and see how different shapes and material affect the rate of build-up.


Last edited by retired on Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:47 pm
Posts: 108
Did bogman ever use the phrase proper (or improper) playing ____ on that thread?

In my limited experience playing whistles (including the one Goldie made) I find it essential to keep the windway clean. I try not to eat anything (crackers) during the time I'm playing if I think bits may lodge in the corners of the windway. When I clean the windway I pull a slice of thin, folded cardboard/cardstock all the way through.

Never tried the toothpaste, though I don't doubt it works. Did someone say it doesn't? Having said that I have good reason to think that changing one's playing/use of air can reduce the clogging factor.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 2:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 6:34 pm
Posts: 367
"Having said that I have good reason to think that changing one's playing..."
Hmm -- I'm having a problem with this statement - My thinking is exhaled air from the lungs contains moisture - I don't think one can change the percentage of moisture in the air they expell - maybe exhaling faster may affect the rate of build-up but what 'technique' would also change moisture build-up. Forgot to add that using the quiet technique mentioned previously - you can coat the external top of the windway and observe how different substances reduce (or don't) moisture build-up. I've done this and so far the winner, in my limited testing is a very thin coat of non-diluted dish washing liquid - it even beat out an expensive nano-micro water shedding coating.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
 Post subject: Re: Clogging
PostPosted: Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 31, 2004 2:06 pm
Posts: 2694
Location: Dartmouth, Massachusetts, USA
I once heard R. Carlos Nakai talk about playing with the dry part of the lungs (NAfs—at least the kind with windways similar to whistles—are also prone to "watering-out"). His premise was that the upper part of the lungs are "drier" than the lower and if you control your breathing you can avoid dipping into those more moist, lower regions of the lungs for your air supply. I can't say that I bought it, but he seemed quite sincere and spent part of the day helping workshop participants relearn breathing techniques... That's what he considered "proper breathing techniques".

Best wishes.

Steve

_________________
"Do not resent growing old. Many are denied the privilege."


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google, Polara Pat and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.138s | 14 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)