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 Post subject: Play out of scale?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:00 am 
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Please help me out here!

I'm learning the tune "Pontivy" by McGoldrick, and am now taking on the third part.
I've listened over and over using The Ultimate Slow Downer, and to me it seems like this third part is in another pitch/scale. Am I right? Since the whistle only have one scale, how is this possible?? Am I suppose to cover "half" of a hole, or am I just plain wrong??


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 Post subject: Re: Play out of scale?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:38 am 
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Yes, there is a key change. The third part is in D minor.
The D minor scale: D E F G A Bb C D', all the notes you have in a F major scale.
But you don't need to change the D whistle.
You need to half-hole the F natural, and perhaps the Bb, as well as the C natural, if you don't cross-finger this note.
It might be possible to play a decent Bb on the D whistle with a crossed fingering,
like XOX XXX.

Perhaps the tune notation may help as well:
http://thesession.org/tunes/10360

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 Post subject: Re: Play out of scale?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 8:50 am 
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:) Heehee! :) Nice tune, that one.

The whistle is a generally tuned to a major diatonic scale based on the bell note. They play easily in that major scale as well as the major scale of the fourth by either half-holing or cross fingering the fourth note of that additional scale. So in D whistle terms, a D whistle plays in D major as it was made that way. It also plays in G major by using a Cnat in place of the C#. So you play the Cnat by either half-holing the top hole DOO OOO or using a cross-fingering like OXX OOO or OXX XOX. That's the easy stuff. Many whistles allow for other notes in the chromatic pallet. You play those by either half-holing or using cross-fingerings. Take a gander at this fingering chart.

Image

I do not play the tune myself but I have the recording around here somewhere. Without sitting down to figure it out my recollection is that the third part goes into Dm/Fmaj which gives it its very unique feel. That would suggest you need to flat the thirds in the Dmaj scale at the very least. And to do that requires that you half-hole the BH3 hole to change from F# to Fnat. But that's just from my recollection of the tune. Not sure about the C's and B's. Maybe someone else that plays the tune will chime in as well with their experience with the tune. Half-holing is a technique that you will need to play quite a few tunes. Might as well start learning it here.

Have fun with it. Ah, Hans hit enter before me!

Feadoggie

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 Post subject: Re: Play out of scale?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:33 am 
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Feadoggie wrote:
:Not sure about the C's and B's.

The C part starts on Bb, and there are a number of C naturals as well, so you need to use the entire D minor scale. Quite a nice exercise anyway to play D minor scales on the D whistle.

One could of course point out that such a tune is a good candidate for a recorder, the musical instrument I mean :D . If you do, use at least a wide bore one like Adris Traumflöte, I'd say.

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Last edited by hans on Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Play out of scale?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:39 am 
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hans wrote:

One could of course point out that such a tune is a good candidate for a recorder, the musical instrument I mean :D .


Hans, how could you? :o Whistle forum man, whistle. Heresy.

ecohawk

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 Post subject: Re: Play out of scale?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:56 am 
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ecohawk wrote:
hans wrote:
One could of course point out that such a tune is a good candidate for a recorder, the musical instrument I mean :D .
Hans, how could you? :o Whistle forum man, whistle. Heresy.
Hi hi, the world needs more heresy i say :P :lol:

I find it quite amusing that one is not even supposed to spell out the name of that instrument here, i guess the rationale behind it, if there is indeed one, is that it would attract the wrong crowd. Shame i say.

Perhaps we should campaign against tunes with Fs and Bbs as well :D

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 Post subject: Re: Play out of scale?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:14 pm 
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hans wrote:
. . . D E F G A Bb C D', all the notes you have in a F major scale. . .

If you want the notes from an Fmaj scale, try a C whistle and flatten the B. That flattened B uses the same fingering as flattening the C# on a D whistle: either half-hole the top hole or use 0xx000. (stated another way, it's the same way we get a Gmaj scale out of a D whistle).

trill


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 Post subject: Re: Play out of scale?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:18 pm 
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trill wrote:
hans wrote:
. . . D E F G A Bb C D', all the notes you have in a F major scale. . .

If you want the notes from an Fmaj scale, try a C whistle and flatten the B. That flattened B uses the same fingering as flattening the C# on a D whistle: either half-hole the top hole or use 0xx000. (stated another way, it's the same way we get a Gmaj scale out of a D whistle).
Yes, but that does not help you with the tune in question. You don't want to swap whistles mid-tune.

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 Post subject: Re: Play out of scale?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:45 pm 
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hans wrote:
But you don't need to change the D whistle.
You need to half-hole the F natural, and perhaps the Bb, as well as the C natural, if you don't cross-finger this note.
It might be possible to play a decent Bb on the D whistle with a crossed fingering,
like XOX XXX.

Here's an illustration of what Hans is describing. D whistle, half-holed F-nat, cross-fingered Bb, no change of whistle needed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgCYCoXp4fo

And another: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5REYYAln3sw

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 Post subject: Re: Play out of scale?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:51 am 
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I think I'll leave all this chromatic gimmickry to the accordion and banjo players.

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 Post subject: Re: Play out of scale?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 8:49 am 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
I think I'll leave all this chromatic gimmickry to the accordion and banjo players.
To each his own.
But the tune in question is neither chromatic nor gimmickry.
It is just a change of key, a change into a slightly less friendly key for whistle players.
But it is still a mode of a diatonic scale (D minor). And sitting well on a D whistle, no notes too low or too high. So perfectly doable, even though it takes you out of your comfort zone, and opens new horizons. But not for chromatic playing, nor for gimmickry. The change of keys has always been employed in dance music, to make a set more interesting. Perhaps playing in 7/8 may be called gimmickry? It certainly has no roots in West European traditions. So it is part of fusing different traditions. Still very interesting though.

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 Post subject: Re: Play out of scale?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 10:17 am 
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hans wrote:
pancelticpiper wrote:
I think I'll leave all this chromatic gimmickry to the accordion and banjo players.
To each his own.
But the tune in question is neither chromatic nor gimmickry.

Of course, pancelt with his excellent skillz is one of the few people here who could execute that key change in 7/8 without a second thought. He's just being persnickety. :wink:

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