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 Post subject: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:17 am 
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I'm getting a little confused with different teaching on "cuts." As I understood it the cut was the grace note (it's not a grace note but let's call it that) plus the main note so that playing a cut that divides two E would be E AE, with the A obviously just a blip and involving hardly lifting the A finger. But that if you were to play a cut on an isolated note say at the beginning of a phrase or after a different note it would look like this on E again: AE.

Now I've been told that main note always comes first so that with the first example and assuming you tongue the second E, it would be E EAE. Again with the isolated E, the cut would be EAE.

Can someone help me. I slowed down example for the Cotter & McKenna tutorial MP3s and they appeared to be doing the latter examples and calling them cuts with casadhs being something similar but I couldn't work out the difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:42 am 
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Mikethebook wrote:
Now I've been told that main note always comes first

Have to say you've been told wrong, Mike!

But, yes, {ea}e would be what's sometimes called the casadh, with {a}e the simple cut.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:20 pm 
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Don't want to muddle the issue even further, but another technique (the one I use, which learned from Grey Larsen and Ivan Goff) is to lift the finger that's one above the note you're cutting. SOOOO... in the current example, it would be {g}e. The g would be {b}g, etc. I, personally, find rolls easier using this method (but then again, this is the only method I've ever used extensively). Some others even advocate cutting the note itself - so it'd be {f}e and {a}g, etc. I don't think this gives enough definition to the cut, but that's another technique.

Have fun!!!

Pat

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 1:43 pm 
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So Peter, two questions. Would the casadh be also called a double cut? Secondly, when it comes to a short roll do you start with a simple cut, as you call it, or a casadh?

Yes, I agree Larsen has his own ideas on where to cut which affects the rolls. I may choose to cut according to ideas at times but when doing a roll will go back to cutting with the standard G & B fingers.


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:41 pm 
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Mikethebook wrote:
So Peter, two questions. Would the casadh be also called a double cut?

No idea what some might call it (though casadh's clearly not universal), but not by me when 'double cut' seems to imply cutting the main note twice (which the casadh doesn't do).

(Edit: apparently yes!)

Quote:
Secondly, when it comes to a short roll do you start with a simple cut, as you call it, or a casadh?

Normal/standard/simple cut. But I wouldn't start any roll with a casadh because the rhythmic relationship of the notes (say {a}e{d}e and e{a}e{d}e for short and long rolls respectively and {ea}e for the casadh) is different.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:53 am 
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Mike, you may like to take a look at this site for some good lessons on techniques.

http://www.kerrywhistles.com/movie.php?groupID=48

wiz


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:56 am 
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Thanks Peter. Very helpful. Wizzywig, thanks I'm fully aware of those videos but Phil doesn't or hasn't so far separated rolls from their constituent cuts and taps. He may do soon though. I gather the next video will have stuff on ornaments.


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:04 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
Quote:
Secondly, when it comes to a short roll do you start with a simple cut, as you call it, or a casadh?

Normal/standard/simple cut.


I find many teachers here in Ireland advocate tonguing that cut on a short roll. That's what I do anyway to emphasize it more, but no harm either way.


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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2012 1:53 am 
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FWIW I tongue loads of cuts... but then I've never regarded tonguing as the Devil's work! :devil:

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 1:05 pm 
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I really like the sound of tongued ornaments on whistle, as per Sean Ryan or Carmel Gunning. I'm just beginning to work on them though. Would you have any advice for me?

At this point I often seem to miss the boat, as in cutting too early, so the cut happend while I'm tonguing and is inaudible, or else doing an inadvertent tongued casadh, where i cut too late and get a snatch of pre-cut note. Tho' I kinda like the sound of of the latter mistake; it can be very crunchy sounding.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2012 2:18 pm 
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Think (as they say in comedy) 'it's all in the timing'. Which comes with practice and experience, although I'd also specifically recommend taking the ornaments out of their tune contexts and practising them as both isolated and repetitive exercises. So guess I'd suggest starting by trying your tongued cuts or 'tongued-cut' short rolls as 'singletons' before moving on (over a period of time) to continuous repetitions and later perhaps ascending chains of them, but always at a steady pulse (and I mean steady!) with the emphasis on snappy grace notes and synchronised tonguing (never quick-fire repetition of the actual ornaments).

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 7:41 am 
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I would add is that people do this stuff differently according to their own taste ie tonguing and not tonguing

It all needs solid dedicated practise and this pays off massively in the long term.

So find a tune you know really well and try cutting into some of the notes of the A part. Just keep going over a small part of the tune. Do it again tomorrow and the next day. Keep going, you are getting there......

Also run down the scale cutting each one by your chosen method over and over again.

If at all possible record yourself on your phone or something so you can hear the progress you have made over a period of a few weeks. It is so worth it.

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:25 am 
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I think paper cuts are the worst :D

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:34 pm 
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gregdidge wrote:
I think paper cuts are the worst :D


Especially on the tongue ...

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 Post subject: Re: Confusion on Cuts
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:38 am 
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I've had further time to dwell on the nature of cuts, plus time with a teacher who was taught by Mary Bergin and access to Blayne Chastain's excellent teaching site, Blayne having graduated from the University of Limerick and their Irish Traditional Music course.

Both of them teach cuts as beginning with the main note, hence a cut on E would be EaE, with a short roll on E being EaE dE. Double cuts according to Blayne are an advanced ornament more like a crann and neither teacher refers to a casadh. I've had difficulty to begin with especially when a cut is performed on a different note to the preceding note but practising helps get the cuts tight and brief. Now the idea of starting a cut with the cutting finger in mid-air so to speak seems wrong. No way can you get the cuts as tight that way as with a tiny blip or flick of the cutting finger from the main note.


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