Lung Capacity/ Breathing

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Mikethebook
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Tell us something.: May 2022, I'm a second-time beginner to the whistle and low whistle after a three-year gap due to a chest injury brought to an end twelve years of playing. I've started on a high whistle and much is coming back quickly but it will be a while before I can manage a Low D again where my interest really lies. I chiefly love slow airs rather than dance tunes and am a fan of the likes of Davy Spillane, Eoin Duignan, Fred Morrison and Paddy Keenan.
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Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Mikethebook »

I'm a relative beginner on the Low D whistle, playing an "easy blower" Goldie on which the breath requirements are not excessive but I'm aware, especially for playing slow airs that my lung capacity (as an unfit 57 year old) is inadequate. I have two questions:

1. I'm learning to breath with the diaphram, the stomach extending out as I take in air, but then am I supposed to lift the chest and ribs extending the air intake further?

2. Does anyone have tips or exercises for increasing lung capacity . . . apart from obviously playing?
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Feadoggie
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Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Feadoggie »

Mikethebook, you're still a youngster!
Mikethebook wrote:Does anyone have tips or exercises for increasing lung capacity . . . apart from obviously playing?
Don't think about it, just play. Playing and more playing is the key.

Do you sing? It is just like singing really. You take a breath and you sing. Sure some trained singers do the diaphragm thing but they are trying to fill opera halls. Most of us just sing without thinking. Once you have the tune in your head try singing it to find where you should breathe.

Do you sit when you play? Standing to play can help in some cases.

I don't think much about how I breathe when I play whistle. I do think about where I breathe. Just make sure you fill your lungs when you start. Then watch your phrasing, keep it musical and figure out where it makes sense to take a breath. It will differ from tune to tune but it becomes part that tune as you practice. It gets easier the more familiar you are with the tune and the more you play.

Feadoggie
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Angel Shadowsong
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Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Angel Shadowsong »

Hi,

Do the hiss exersise for diaphraminal strengthening.

Imagine like your a snake and pronounce the HISS word.

You should sustain the ss sound until you ran out of breath

Repeat several times and see improvement in 7 days after regular

Practice.

Just be careful you might summon snakes. :thumbsup:
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Mikethebook
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Tell us something.: May 2022, I'm a second-time beginner to the whistle and low whistle after a three-year gap due to a chest injury brought to an end twelve years of playing. I've started on a high whistle and much is coming back quickly but it will be a while before I can manage a Low D again where my interest really lies. I chiefly love slow airs rather than dance tunes and am a fan of the likes of Davy Spillane, Eoin Duignan, Fred Morrison and Paddy Keenan.
Location: Scotland

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Mikethebook »

Thanks for the replies. Angel, I think I'm doing something similar to what you suggest. I breath in using the diaphragm and then let it out slowly through pursed lips. Feadoggie, you don't mention HOW you fill your lungs. Do you breathe in with your rib cage rising and expanding, do you breathe in with your diaphragm . . . pushing out the stomach or do you do the latter then the former?
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Denny
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Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Denny »

go for a more gestalt approach

it all works together...


oh yeah, the diaphragm is not a muscle :wink:
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david_h
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Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by david_h »

I found the same thing (the need for more air) when taking up flute after whistle . I think the stuff that singers do (e.g. as suggested by Angel) does help. I have now got lazy and settled down to "stand or sit up straight and the do stomach out diaphragm quick breath thing when I think about it". I think Feadogie's "Just make sure you fill your lungs when you start." is where the chest gets filled and one writer (possibly Grey Larsen) suggests that the air in the chest is sort of an 'emergency reserve'.


There is also some yoga-type breathing stuff that is described as aiming to relax the muscles between the ribs to make filling the chest easier. .
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Feadoggie
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Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Feadoggie »

Mikethebook wrote:Feadoggie, you don't mention HOW you fill your lungs.
To quote Faith Hill (or Stephanie Bentley more correctly), "Just Breathe".

As I said, I do not think about it. Thinking gets in the way.

If you were playing Highland Bagpipes, bassoon, oboe or English Horn, you might need more technique breathing but this is a whistle. It really is as natural as singing. Remember, it's called "playing".

Maybe I am in a minority here. I view the issue on a low D for most newplayers as being more about proper phrasing and less about big lungs.

Ok, I'll also mention some of my experience coaching more "mature" players on the whistle. I frequently see cases where such players run out of air.

In some small number of cases, the player is also actually breathing out of their nose while they play. That'll starve the whistle.

In other cases I see such players run out of air for their bodies before they run out of air for the whistle. That's a real problem. If you had said you had a Goldie hard blower I'd have honed in on that. Spend your thinking time thinking about the tune.

But in more cases, it is a matter of not getting a full breath before they commence playing and not knowing when to take the next breath. Phrasing helps solve that issue.

Really, don't spend time deep thinking about this, just play the tune over and over. It all works itself out.

Feadoggie
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Mikethebook
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Tell us something.: May 2022, I'm a second-time beginner to the whistle and low whistle after a three-year gap due to a chest injury brought to an end twelve years of playing. I've started on a high whistle and much is coming back quickly but it will be a while before I can manage a Low D again where my interest really lies. I chiefly love slow airs rather than dance tunes and am a fan of the likes of Davy Spillane, Eoin Duignan, Fred Morrison and Paddy Keenan.
Location: Scotland

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Mikethebook »

Thanks for the answers. I think it concerns me because my interest is not in the ITM reels and jigs I'm learning to play the whistle on right now but more in Davy Spillane's type of slow ethereal tune where there can be extended high notes and no chance of more regular normal phrasing. His type of music is where my ambition lies and for that reason, I want to do everything I can to maximise my lung capacity.
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Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by CarvedTones »

If you need a breath at a session, just stare accusingly at the fiddle player and shake your head, sigh, take a big breath and start playing again. :lol:
-Andy
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Feadoggie
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Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Feadoggie »

Mikethebook wrote:I want to do everything I can to maximise my lung capacity.
Then I'd suggest taking up the triathalon or at least the marathon. Those guys that blow up the spaghetti balloons to make animals and such from them seem to have strong lungs too. That's a bit tongue-in-cheek but there's no secret to developing lung capacity. The more you use 'em the better your capacity - oxygen uptake is a whole 'nother matter.

But as for Spillane, you have to understand his instrument and approach a bit. First off, he's been at it for a lifetime and he has the head, hands and lungs to show for it. Second he uses a particular whistle geared for his style of playing. There's nothing at all wrong with your free blowing Goldie. It's a great whistle. But you might want to try a hard blower at some point (if you haven't already). That would have a great effect on air use and the air pressure you need to make it hit the high notes. It changes the dynamics a great deal too. But it might help get you down the road a bit faster towards your goal.

But more than anything else, I still think it comes down to playing and playing and playing some more. There's just no quick path (at least none of which I am aware).
I've proven who I am so many times, the magnetic strips worn thin.
Mikethebook
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Tell us something.: May 2022, I'm a second-time beginner to the whistle and low whistle after a three-year gap due to a chest injury brought to an end twelve years of playing. I've started on a high whistle and much is coming back quickly but it will be a while before I can manage a Low D again where my interest really lies. I chiefly love slow airs rather than dance tunes and am a fan of the likes of Davy Spillane, Eoin Duignan, Fred Morrison and Paddy Keenan.
Location: Scotland

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Mikethebook »

Thanks Feadoggie. I try to do about an hour's practice a day on the Goldie, sometimes more . . . but maybe I'll dig my exercise bike out. Actually, according to an impeccable source who has played Spillane's main whistle several times, and contrary to what you might think, it is very free-blowing, hardly any backpressure . . . . which makes the man's playing all the more amazing, I guess.
Mikethebook
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Tell us something.: May 2022, I'm a second-time beginner to the whistle and low whistle after a three-year gap due to a chest injury brought to an end twelve years of playing. I've started on a high whistle and much is coming back quickly but it will be a while before I can manage a Low D again where my interest really lies. I chiefly love slow airs rather than dance tunes and am a fan of the likes of Davy Spillane, Eoin Duignan, Fred Morrison and Paddy Keenan.
Location: Scotland

Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Mikethebook »

Out of curiosity Feadoggie, how does a whistle with high backpressure change the playing dynamics . . . . in your opinion? Right now it's all I can do to reach the high A to D notes on this whistle. I can imagine a hard blower would be a real eye popper.
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Lars Larry Mór Mott
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Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Lars Larry Mór Mott »

Mikethebook wrote:Out of curiosity Feadoggie, how does a whistle with high backpressure change the playing dynamics . . . . in your opinion? Right now it's all I can do to reach the high A to D notes on this whistle. I can imagine a hard blower would be a real eye popper.
Imagine blowing air through a 4"straw vs. a 4" piece of garden hose, in which case would one breath last longest? :)
Hammy Hamilton springs to mind, he writes in his flute book (i am not guaranteeing word perfect quote) "Playing the flute isn't harder or takes more breath than having a conversation, and you don't run out of breath talking, do you?"
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ghicken
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Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by ghicken »

I started playing the flute three months before the whistle. There's more back pressure in whistles. At first I would breathe in and fill the lungs concentrating on my belly to fill my lungs and blow a note until I exhausted all air. After a few minutes I'd get light headed but that really helped because I've had no problems with high notes on the whistle.

I tried using a balloon to exercise my lungs and even though the back pressure seemed to make me work harder to expand the balloon, I never noticed any benefit from this exercise. I think having no back pressure works better to build up lungs. YMMV.

That's what I did but I don't know if you'd want to take up the flute.
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Feadoggie
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Re: Lung Capacity/ Breathing

Post by Feadoggie »

Mikethebook wrote:Actually, according to an impeccable source who has played Spillane's main whistle several times, and contrary to what you might think, it is very free-blowing, hardly any backpressure . . . . which makes the man's playing all the more amazing, I guess.
Yes, he's amazing. And I wasn't saying his whistle is hard-blowing. My remark about the hard-blowing whistles was more to address your air usage issue on the easy-blower.
Mikethebook wrote:Out of curiosity Feadoggie, how does a whistle with high backpressure change the playing dynamics . . . . in your opinion? Right now it's all I can do to reach the high A to D notes on this whistle. I can imagine a hard blower would be a real eye popper.
Playing dynamics first. I'm no good at describing the physical differences. And any analogy I would use could be argued against I'm sure. They are really just different interfaces.

In the past I've said that you play some whistles and some whistle play you. Free(er)-blowing whistles have a lot of leeway, or at least a wide range in how you blow them which results in changes in volume, pitch and attack. Free-blowing whistles will use comparatively more air to drive them.

It's unfair to say that you can't control those aspects on a hard-blower but the range is tighter, at least in my experience. Harder-blowing whistle use less air to drive them. But they require more air pressure to drive them. Like anything else you get to know your tool and make music - so no real issue there. It can be viewed as a matter of choice. Do you want to generate more air pressure or blow more air.
Mr_Blackwood wrote:Hammy Hamilton springs to mind, he writes in his flute book (i am not guaranteeing word perfect quote) "Playing the flute isn't harder or takes more breath than having a conversation, and you don't run out of breath talking, do you?"
That was my point about singing actually. But most of us can still talk even if we can't sing. Hammy wins.

The straw analogy is quite germane. Which gives me another thought. Has anyone tried inserting various diameter straws into a whistle windway to see how it changes playing characteristics? I'll put that one on my list.

The trick in comparing whistles to flutes is that the whistle has more of a fixed requirement for volume of air dependent on the windway design where the flute is dependent on the player's embouchure. The flute is really much more efficient - once you get the embouchure developed. They require surprisingly little air and still make a big sound.

MTB, just keep at it. It's a long road. Relax. Spillane is a good player to listen to and has a great sound for players to try to emulate. Keep at it.

Feadoggie
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