Best High-End Whistles these days?

[Daeld]

I have recently made the plunge and purchased a Pat O'Riordan whistle. It is wonderful. I also own 4 Oz whistles some Gene Milligan whistles and a full set of Syn Whistles (among others). I love them all for different reasons. And although they are each beautiful in their own way, they are made from quite simple designs (unlike, for example a Burke whistle).

I went to the Oz Whistles and McManus websites and see that they are sadly no longer taking new orders. This made me wonder a couple of things:

1) Pat's design was universally loved and I just paid an arm and a leg for my D and C set. The design is quite simple and surely could have been taught to someone before his unfortunate passing. Couldn't Oz and McManus whistles pass on their designs? (obviously not to be mass produced but to pass it on to someone to take the reins?)

2) As invariably (1) will not happen, who has the next "Best Whistle in the World" at the moment?

[Narzog]

So as you know theres no true best whistle due to preference. But some whistles/makers obviously do things right and become extra popular. I feel like I have to say at least for low whistles, Collin Goldie is #1. I check the used section every day, several times a day. I missed a Goldie low D that was $230 shipped. Which is an absolute steal. It obviously was marked as sold within 3 hours of him posting it. MK whistles are nice, I love my mk pro. But I was able to buy it used. I cant even find a Goldie used that isnt marked as sold before I get to PM them. I feel like this puts Goldie above everyone else. The insane demand has to mean something.

With new makers Its interesting because I know there are many new less known makers out there. Some are just copying others. Like the assorted sindt lookalikes. Whats funny though, is that most of the Sindt lookalikes, are actually trying to copy Killarney. When I got into whistle playing, I saw killarneys everywhere. I didnt know they were Sindt copys. And to most new players, the Sindt lookalikes are Killerney nockoffs.

And some other new makers are trying to innovate, but the innovations dont work as well to me as the old methods. I've seen 3d printed, molded, resins, etc. Which can make cheaper instruments. But I don't expect any of those to become the next Goldie, Sindt, Burke, etc. And they have other weird cons. I've done too much research on material safety, I don't trust any of these 3d printed or resin whistles enough to put them in my mouth.

I will say, maybe not as the "best" maker, but Nightingale whistles by Alexander Karavaev, in the future will become the new chieftain. As in, mass produced, lots of people will buy them low whistles. Just looking at youtube and reddit, you see more chieftain's than other makers (when looking at random players, not pro players). Due to cost and popularity. You can just buy them, no contacting a maker, etc. Nightingale are super cheap, and quite good. Although vary heavily from key to key because theres a few mouth pieces and bore sizes, with many more whistle keys. But I feel like these deserve an honorable mention. Give it 5 years or so, and these will be extremely popular among casual players.

[Loren]

I went to the Oz Whistles and McManus websites and see that they are sadly no longer taking new orders. This made me wonder a couple of things:

1) Pat's design was universally loved

While I have great respect for Pat O. and his work, and I can appreciate the sentiment, that’s not really an accurate statement: Some people loved them, other people much preferred something else. I never saw O’Riordan whistles much at sessions or on stage back when they were still being made and reasonably priced, say in the 90’s. (This is where the real ITM old timers think, and rightly so, “The 90’s?? Ha! Rookie.”) Of course there were exceptions, some noteable, but it’s not like they were universally lauded among players.

The design is quite simple and surely could have been taught to someone before his unfortunate passing.

Perhaps not as simple as you believe. IIRC from my observations of the O’Riordan whistles I used to own, the windway geometry was significantly more complex than that of most whistles. It could be argued that a Burke whistle is no more complex than an O’Riordan, depending on how one looks at things, and how one works.

Certainly Pat could have taught someone else how to make his whistles if he desired to.

Couldn't Oz and McManus whistles pass on their designs? (obviously not to be mass produced but to pass it on to someone to take the reins?)

By “pass on their designs” I am taking that to mean teaching someone else how to make their whistles, because the actual designs are self evident in the end product. So, if you mean couldn’t these makers teach someone else to make the whistles and carry on the brand, perhaps they will but:

A. Roy’s website seems to indicate that he plans, or at least hopes, to get back to making whistles. Perhaps I am misreading or his plans have changed, I’m just interpreting what I read on his site the best I am able.

B. Mitch’s health issues seem to be preventing him from even making whistles, let alone training someone to make them. Training someone is more difficult and time consuming than making instruments yourself.

C. Most solo instrument makers and other craftspersons(?) don’t want other people to continue their work for one reason or another. It’s a bit unfair to compare whistle makers to artists but, would Picasso have taught someone to continue making Picassos after he quit or was gone?

Those in the arts and crafts tend to identify very personally with what they produce, they see it as a personal expression, as well as the lasting evidence and impression of their own hand. As such it’s a bit antithetical to train someone else to carry on one’s own creative endeavors, though occasionally the promise of financial reward can motivate a maker to train one or more people make their instruments and pass on the name, but this often leads to problems for one or more of the parties involved - it rarely seems to turn out as planned and years of stress, strife and financial loss can follow. I’ve seen this happen with different instrument makers and other crafts people over the years. Usually best avoided, but sometimes it can work.

A better option is for a maker to simply train others how to make whistles as they are getting to the time when they plan to retire. Pass on the skills, without giving consent to copy the design or use the name. This serves everyone better I think, at least for those makers who are interested in passing on the craft.

The only whistle maker I can think of off hand to do this was Glenn Schultz. I’m laughing as I type this for 2 reasons: 1. Glenn was a real character and his personal communications with me always made me laugh or at least smile. And 2. The way things work here on the board Paul Busman may very well post talking about Glenn before I finish my lengthy missive.

Anyway, for those who don’t know, Glenn Schultz was the maker of Water Weasel whistles, and he was a master machinist but trade. Many of the more modern whistles you may run across are either copies of Glenn’s whistles, or very close derivatives. Glenn made very high quality whistles from wood, pvc and cpvc pipe.

Glenn offered to teach me his method for making whistles, so that I would have the skills to go on my own instrument making journey. I believe Glenn saw whistle making like he saw manual machining, as a valuable and quickly vanishing skill set that should be passed on in order to be preserved. Glenn was very selfless and generous in that way, at least that was my perception from our communications.

Unfortunately I was facing a number of challenges when Glenn made his offer to me and I felt I couldn’t fly out to learn from him at that time. I thought there would be time for that in the future. Tragically, I was wrong.

The good news is that prior to Glenn’s passing Paul Busman was able to travel to Glenn and learn his method for making whistles, so the knowledge was passed on, which I imagine would have made Glenn happy. Paul would know better than I, of course.

Most whistle makers seem to quit or retire with with no interest in teaching others, which is understandable. A few have sold their business and/or trained others to make their designs. Fewer still have passed on the craft simply for the sake of preserving the craft alone.

Fortunately making whistles isn’t that difficult, anyone motivated can learn to do it. Nearly every maker is copying the makers who came before them, so “design” is rarely an issue, assuming you are copying a good whistle to begin with. The real challenge is cultivating the mindsets and skill sets required to consistently make a great instrument time after time - being really detail oriented and precise is not something everyone is good at. Frankly, I think this is the most valuable thing one craftsman can teach another, it trumps even skills and methods.

2) As invariably (1) will not happen, who has the next "Best Whistle in the World" at the moment?

I’ve nothing to offer on this, since I haven’t played many of the more recent whistles. That said, over the years we’ve gone through more of a “flavor of the month or year” than the next “best whistle in the world”, IMO. Many whistles have been “fantastic” here over the years, only to be abandoned for the next flavor a year or three later. Some often come back in vogue when the maker slows down or quits. O’Riordans, Copelands, Sindts, Oz whistles and others have swung back and forth on the opinion, popularity, and price scales over the years. No doubt that will continue and more latest and greatest whistles will show up.

Fortunately Colin Goldie keeps plugging along with his particular skill and genius. And, for the purely trad style and sound, we have the O’Briain Improved whistles, maybe the Freemans (I’ve only played one) and the Sindt’s. Can’t comment on the Sindt derivatives since I’ve never played any of them. Abell and Burke whistles are still available, no?

I guess I don’t really understand what “next best whistle in the world” is meant to mean. I don’t say that to be argumentative, I simply don’t think I know exactly what your meaning is. I certainly do think some whistles are objectively better than others in one or more ways: Craftsmanship, playability, perhaps tone (somewhat subjective, at least to a point.) However there are upper echelon whistles still being produced by active makers, so Daeld, are you saying you feel the Oz, McManus, and O’Riordan whistles are better than the ones I mentioned above, not that my list was by any means exhaustive. Just curious where you’re coming from as it’s not entirely clear from your post.

[Daeld]

Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of so many of my whistles. I wouldn't trade my Syn whistles for anything but the Oz whistles and the O'Riordan whistles have a next-level all-rounder quality to them. They sound good, they are easy to play and they do what I ask of them. And sure, I can get a Gene Milligan and a Burke whistle to sound great too, but when I play the Oz or the O'Riordan, its like the shackles have been taken off and I can just play. That's what I'm getting at, I suppose. And sure, the Abell is a great whistle, but at least for me, don't have they same overall sound/ease of play as an O'Riordan or and Oz.

They key with teaching someone how to do it is the airway/blade geometry. Everything else (bore size, hole size, hole separation length, etc) is easily taught. Teaching someone to make the blade, in particular, the right way would be the challenge. Of course, recorder manufacturers have been doing this by 3D capture and getting a machine to replicate it the wonderful recorders of old. Something like this could be done with a whistle (although most high-end whistles have substantially more complex airways/blades than a recorder).

As for a burke whistle being complex, I just meant that it has a lot of parts to make it what it is. if you look at an oz whistle, you could replicate it (ie the design, not the sound) with PVC piping at home with not many tools (though obviously not to the same standard). The same could not be said of a burke.

[Loren]

Don't get me wrong, I love the sound of so many of my whistles. I wouldn't trade my Syn whistles for anything but the Oz whistles and the O'Riordan whistles have a next-level all-rounder quality to them. They sound good, they are easy to play and they do what I ask of them. And sure, I can get a Gene Milligan and a Burke whistle to sound great too, but when I play the Oz or the O'Riordan, its like the shackles have been taken off and I can just play. That's what I'm getting at, I suppose. And sure, the Abell is a great whistle, but at least for me, don't have they same overall sound/ease of play as an O'Riordan or and Oz.

It’s cool that you’ve found some favorite whistles. I won’t comment on the relative merits of the various brands at this juncture as preferences are largely subjective. Also, while I’ve owned a few O’Riordans, I have, unfortunately, never owned an Oz whistle. Meant to buy one from Mitch early on but wasn’t able to at the time. Later the prices got so high I couldn’t justify the expense, because I was playing flute much more often than whistle. Still hope to find one though.

They key with teaching someone how to do it is the airway/blade geometry. Everything else (bore size, hole size, hole separation length, etc) is easily taught.

Depends on the person, some people learn hand tool work more easily than (safe) machine tool procedures, and vice versa. I’ve been in a position to learn and teach both machine and hand tool skills around multiple other people in various environments and craft disciplines, IME people really vary widely in what they take to and how quickly.

Teaching someone to make the blade, in particular, the right way would be the challenge.

Not necessarily, depends on the design, and the tools/methods being used to create the ramp and blade edge. Some designs simply have a lathe turned ramp/blade configuration. Others use a milled design. Some are forged and filed. Most wood makers hand file to final dimensions.

Now I will admit that learning to create the window/ramp/blade was by far the most difficult thing I worked on learning in recorder making, but that was largely due to the method used, which was hand carving, rather than filing. I found carving super challenging, while detail filing was very comfortable for me, but I wasn’t given a choice, and there were reasons for doing it the way they did where I worked. But things needn’t be that difficult for making a great whistle.

Of course, recorder manufacturers have been doing this by 3D capture and getting a machine to replicate it the wonderful recorders of old.

Not entirely certain what exactly you are referring to here. I’ve been away from recorder making for a few years, but last I checked the best players in the world were still using hand made recorders, some of which I had a hand in making. Not saying you are wrong, maybe there’s been a big shift in recent years, but it’s hard to imagine, knowing all that goes into making a truly world class recorder.

Something like this could be done with a whistle (although most high-end whistles have substantially more complex airways/blades than a recorder).

Whoa, horsie! WHOA!!! That’s actually completely backwards: High end recorder windways a far more complex than any whistle windway I am aware of. Even the few whistle making recorder makers like Grinter tended to use a dead simple windway for their whistles. Not saying there aren’t a rare few exceptions out there, but certainly 99% of whistles have an extremely simple, windway that requires little more than assembling the head joint parts.

O’Riordan’s windways are slightly more complex than standard and I can think of a small number of whistle makers who’s designs require significant skilled work on the windway before and/or after assembling the headjoint, but as far as geometry goes, recorder windways are simply much more complex overall than whistles - there is a lot going on in that space with a recorder.

As for a burke whistle being complex, I just meant that it has a lot of parts to make it what it is. if you look at an oz whistle, you could replicate it (ie the design, not the sound) with PVC piping at home with not many tools (though obviously not to the same standard). The same could not be said of a burke.

OK, I see what you mean now, thanks for clarifying.

[Peter Duggan]

reasons for doing it the way they did where I worked.

While I've no answer for Daeld's original question ('who has the next "Best Whistle in the World" at the moment?') and wouldn't want to get drawn into arguing the musical/technical merits of 'high-end whistles' even if I did, I just want to say how much I enjoy your (Loren's) posts when you start getting expansive like here, especially knowing and respecting your background in working for who you did.

[bigsciota]

Those in the arts and crafts tend to identify very personally with what they produce, they see it as a personal expression, as well as the lasting evidence and impression of their own hand. As such it’s a bit antithetical to train someone else to carry on one’s own creative endeavors, though occasionally the promise of financial reward can motivate a maker to train one or more people make their instruments and pass on the name, but this often leads to problems for one or more of the parties involved - it rarely seems to turn out as planned and years of stress, strife and financial loss can follow. I’ve seen this happen with different instrument makers and other crafts people over the years. Usually best avoided, but sometimes it can work.

There are pages only accessible via Wayback Machine on this site I believe that detail the particulars, but this issue may best be illustrated by the Overton style/brand. At one point both Phil Hardy and Colin Goldie were making "Overton" whistles of some sort. I believe there was some sort of dispute that led to Hardy going his own way with his methods of making (and having a fairly thriving business as Kerry/Chieftain) while Goldie eventually switched to putting his name on his own whistles. Both Hardy and Goldie's whistles have roots in Overton concepts, but the actual Overton name isn't on them because by this point, they're as much Hardy and Goldie's designs as they are Overton's. I suppose one or the other or both could have continued to make "Overton" brand whistles to this day, but as Loren says, in reality this rarely works the way you'd think it would.

As for "who makes the best whistle," I'll take a stab and say that the whistle still most prized by a significant segment of the Irish trad community is by John Sindt. I think he's still making them but not 100% sure. Even though Killarney and the rest have moved into his territory a bit with similar/same designs, Sindts are still seen as the best of the bunch by a lot of people. You'll see them in a fair few sessions and gigs, often in the hands of excellent players, and that's at least one mark of a "best" whistle. But really, "best" is a very slippery concept that might not be the most useful way of thinking about whistles, or any instrument.

[Byll]

Loren can be 100% sure that John Sindt continues to make his wonderful instruments.

I have a tremendous admiration and respect for the makers that have been mentioned and discussed in this conversation. I have been privileged to play, and/or own, instruments by many of them. I no longer carry many whistles with me, for performances. When I remember the number I carried in days of yore, it is a bit embarrassing.

It was a whole lot of years ago, when I finally 'came home to a place I'd never been before'. I had spent some dollars over the years, reading C&F, purchasing fine and respected whistles, playing them for awhile, and then because of some anomaly or other, moving on to another instrument maker. Were some better than others? They were certainly different from each other... I have difficulty in trying to define what 'best' means, in general terms. As has been said before, it is all a very personal issue, and best for one player, may not be the same for another... Different players look for different playing characteristics, as they search for their own personal holy grail. When I played a high D built by John Sindt, it was a revelation to me. Perfect? Certainly not. But my whistle needs are answered by John's instruments. I play others, on occasions, but I have had no desire to purchase other instruments, simply out of curiosity.

For me, it comes down to what a particular whistle player wants and desires from their instrument. It is difficult to actually know what one wants, until one has enough experience with playing, that one can actually define those characteristics. It sounds so easy... And yet, it remains a challenge.

[chas]

I'm with Loren on two points:

O'Riordans are love-em-or-hate-em whistles. I got some directly from Pat. They were wonderful for what they were, but I found the sound too pure and too loud.

As a whistle maker (and Loren has been a recorder maker), I can say for sure, they are not a simple design. A lot of thought and effort went into making those whistles.

The closest thing I've played to them is David Boisvert's whistles; I dunno whether he's still making them.

[Daeld]

Dearie me. I think my clumsy writing has gotten me into trouble again.

By the way, thank you all so much for your contributions. I've learned a lot.

And, again, please don't get me wrong: when I'm talking about "the next "best" whistle", I'm just referring to something that is next-level awesome. Something that could fit right in to a small chamber orchestra without excessive amplification or sound engineering. Something that is not hit-and-miss (looking at you generations, as much as I love you) and something that will have a consistent tuning all-round and that has a great cross-fingered C, etc, etc, etc, without needing too much breath and not having too much back-pressure. In short, what would we give a virtuoso in an orchestra (keeping in mind that a virtuoso could easily do it with a Generations whistle and doesn't need a high-end whistle but wants one anyway and money isn't an concern).

And yes, I love Sindt and Burke and Syn whistles (they Syn C is one of my favourites) and yes, they are high-end whistles. But, again, I want that next-level "almost-perfect" whistle. It might not exist at the moment. That's fine.

(actually some of my favourite whistles are the Becket PVC whistles and they are super cheap but masterfully crafted; they play much like my Oz whistles and if the question was about quality vs price ratio, the becket would be the best in the world - in my opinion).

Now, I'm sorry I was so clumsy with my words. What I meant by "simple design" is that, for example there is not much separating a Becket PVC whistle and an Oz whistle (in terms of design elements, obviously).

As for the recorder vs whistle blade, and the 3D capture, I mean the mass-produced recorders, not high-end recorders. And the specific thing I was getting at here is that the blade in the Oz, becket, millicat, etc, etc, etc, is slightly rounded coming up to the ramp ,which is straight, whereas on the wooden and plastic mass-produced recorders I own, the blade geometry itself is quite simple: just a straight ramp - nothing here about how hard it is to make, just the geometry.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Not at all intended.

[Mr.Gumby]

And yes, I love Sindt and Burke and Syn whistles (they Syn C is one of my favourites) and yes, they are high-end whistles. But, again, I want that next-level "almost-perfect" whistle. It might not exist at the moment. That's fine.

I seems to me you are on a fool's errant. You want your whistle to be something it isn't, impose an aesthetic on the instrument that will change it into something else.

I have played whistles that tried this, pandering to the aesthetic of 'classical' musicians (I use that for want of a better word, Richard would possibly use 'legit' but that makes me cringe even more), I found them invariably unpleasant to play, sluggish in their response and overly loud. Not the way to go, as far as I am concerned.

[Narzog]

Something that is not hit-and-miss (looking at you generations, as much as I love you) and something that will have a consistent tuning all-round and that has a great cross-fingered C, etc, etc, etc, without needing too much breath and not having too much back-pressure.

Sadly, there cant be a whistle that everyone thinks is perfect. It just doesnt work, due to the more simple nature of the whistle. The characteristics of a whistle are fixed, and many of them effect each other. Having to blow harder to overblow makes the low notes stronger. One you barely need to blow to overblow, will have weaker low notes. Many makers have found a good balance of the two, but this wont please everyone. Air use is a similar dilemma. If you make the windway taller, you lower backpressure, and lower air efficiency. So trying to have 'not too much backpressure' raises air use. And then what's the perfect balance? Depends on who you ask.

My Reyburn low D isnt hit or miss, every Reyburn low D will be good. Amazing tuning, best of any whistle I've played. Good cross fingered c nat using oxx xox. amazing air efficiency for how loud and strong it is. But... You have to blow really hard and has a lot of back pressure. But thats why its strong and loud and air efficient. You take away that and you get a weak low D that uses too much air. My MK you dont have to push as hard, and has a bit less backpressure. Virtually the same air efficiency. Definitely weaker low end. Is an overall great balance, which is part of why MK are so popular. I think the Reyburn has slightly better tuning overall. Both are amazing instruments and worth their high price tags. But which one someone likes more depends on what they want. More people may like the MK, but some would definitely pick the Reyburn. Its just specialized towards a smaller demographic, while the Mk is more neutral. I think both of these get more things right than most other whistles I've tried (non low D's). But that doesnt mean everybody will think that.

[Loren]

(actually some of my favourite whistles are the Becket PVC whistles…

And

…the becket would be….

Do you mean “Becker”?

I'm sorry if I offended anyone. Not at all intended.

Can’t speak for anyone else, but I certainly wasn’t offended, it’s just that the things you are writing are error riddled and misleading. The problem with that is some newer, less experienced visitors to this forum might actually take things you say about instrument design and construction as fact, hence my replies. It’s got nothing to with feeling offended though. I am more exasperated than anything else at this point because each of your subsequent posts pile on more inaccuracies, including the last, but I don’t want to sink more time into this thread.

With regards to your original question, I could make the sort of whistle you describe, but you wouldn’t like the price, which is to say, I don’t think the whistle buying crowd would support high end recorder world prices, say $1500-$2000. And really, why would it when $65 or so will get you a Cillian O’Briain Improved whistle?

Anyway, good luck with your search.

[Mr.Gumby]

And really, why would it when $65 or so will get you a Cillian O’Briain Improved whistle?

35 euro, last time I looked. But you will have to add p&p where you are. I got one when they were 25 and got me a spare one for the same price from a forum member. They are all I need for a D really, the Sindts and Killarneys only come out of storage for special occasions.

[ytliek]

I must say I've enjoyed this thread and appreciate the lengthy explanations throughout. Best high-end whistle these days is the whistle you have in hand playing and if you are enjoying it there you have it. Be well everyone.