Just intonation whistles - how?

[david_h]

I reckon the second octave issue is of more practical relevance to a JI whistle than slight inharmonicity might have been.

[DrPhill]

Using OXX XXX for octave D instead of XXX XXX does not cause the air column to be cut short there. 000 000 gives you C#, and 0XX XXX is effectively cross fingering this and increasing the length right to the bottom of the tube. The 0XX XXX prevents the bottom octave D to sound, as it has a pressure node near L1, so opening L1 will suppress this low D resonating. The octave D has a static node near L1, so opening it does not cause a pressure drop. Like a skipping rope vibrated at double the frequency, forming a node at the centre. You could hold it there without stopping the rope to swing.

Thanks, but, oh dear, I am well out of my depth. I will crawl back into my box and be quiet now.

[hans]

i am sorry! Then i have not explained well enough!

If you like to ignore the mention of nodes, maybe it is sufficient to say that opening the first hole will make it impossible for the first octave D to sound, so only the second (and higher) octave Ds can be sounded. If you sound first octave D using 0XXXXX fingering, and then put down you first finger (L1), you still playing the same note, the tone is not interrupted or jumping to a slight different pitch. On whistles with a thumb hole I can sound this octave D by opening the thumbhole only. The thumbhole is a bit lower down the tube, but it has the same effect than opening L1. This may tell you that opening these holes does not change the first octave D, and the position of this one open hole is not critical, it just needs to be somewhere near the middle of the tube.

You can do a different test with a different note, to see a different effect:
Take a low or some alto whistle (to make things easier on the ear), sound a low D (or the equivalent on a different key whistle), keep all fingers on and sound the first octave D. Then blow a little harder, but keeping all fingers on, to sound the A above octave D. This is in the third register of the whistle, which we normally never use (not the third octave!). Now sound a standard second octave A (XX0000), and try to go backwars and forwards between this A and the third register A played with XXXXXX. You can hear possibly a slight difference between the two, which tells you that you indeed play two different "waves". This is quite different than playing the octave D with XXXXXX or OXXXXX fingering.

We don't use the term "register" when talking about whistles, but it is used for clarinets. First register are all the low notes, which is the first octave of a whistle. Second register are all the notes sounding when overblowing once. This is the second octave of the whistle. Third register are all the notes when overblowing one step more (twice). On a D whistle these are the notes from second octave A (the fifth above the octave, i.e. the third harmonic) to third octave G. Fourth register notes are the same than the third octave on a whistle.

[highland-piper]

What is "in tune" will depend on the context or background and a predominance of ET in the context can make an in tune thing sound out.

Only in very rare cases -- such as when, in a violin sonata, both instruments have long notes in unison (a rare occurance in a violin sonata). In the context of Irish and Scottish traditional music I've listened to a lot of music with just and ET instruments and I've never once heard a case where the just instrument sounded out of tune because of the ET.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen -- just that it doesn't seem to be much to worry about.

[DrPhill]

i am sorry! Then i have not explained well enough!

Its not your fault, Hans, I am trying to understand things a bit beyond me, though I found your second explanation very clear, thank you. I find that I can understand one small bit at a time (like looking through a magnifying glass at a detail), but I am not familiar enough with the small pieces to see how they relate (to continue the analogy, step back and see more of the picture).

I am hoping that continually hanging round this forum will develop my understanding (it is happening slowly), but occasionally my 'vaulting ambition o'er leaps itself' and I dive into a discussion far above my level.

[talasiga]

..........
I like the way sound spectrum and harmonics are explained here:
What is a Sound Spectrum?

It gives also a nice definition of "timbre":

Timbre has a negative definition - it is the sum of all the qualities that are different in two different sounds which have the same pitch and the same loudness.

.........

Yes, yes, yes. This is the very thing that has driven much of my posting here - this very point.

The qualities that make that difference are many but the predominant issue is the harmonic profile - which of the umpteen harmonics are emphasised.

And what drives my insatiable interest in these sort of topics (despite the tables and charts which are often beyond my immediate grasp) is the real life experiences in music. For instance: (see next post)

[talasiga]

For instance:-
(depersonalised example from real life situation follows).

A student is tuning an Indian tamboura for the drone
for a music lesson. The instrument has 4 strings and, today, is tuned
C cc G
which gives a power C drone.

The microtonal singing master now takes the tamboura and starts to fine tune it
until we can hear a minor third (an Eb) emanating from the power C drone.
His microtonal colleague gestures downwards and smiling the master fine tunes it further so that the Eb emanating is a tad flatter. The notes are still CccG.

The next day, a different piece. The CccG is fine tuned until a major third emanates.

(Irish and other flute related comment to come)