David of the White Rock

[jemtheflute]

Mmmmm. I'm open to that - I left the possibility open, did I not? I know my technical musical knowledge isn't deep enough to be sure of such things. I thought I could see/hear a clear structural and melodic resemblance between the "standard" and Mary Richards "long" setting of CE-C, and the latter is reminiscent of harp variation and counter-melody style (as used in penillion, dare I say?) Of course, if either is a form of CE-A and all the other (as yet unchecked by us) sources Cass mentioned are variants thereof, then an original form of CE-A/C is earlier than either Elizabeth Grant or, probably, even Dafydd Owain. Where does that leave any attribution to Elizabeth Grant, about whom we have learnt very little so far?

CE-B still seems to be musically separate, though, I take it? And which melody should be linked to Dafydd Owain (assuming any such attributions have any historicity rather than being hagiographical) remains in the air ( ) as does the provenance of CE-B.

[benhall.1]

I for one can see no connection between CE-B and any of the other tunes/variants. So, yes, as far as I can see, it's separate. Nice tune, isn't it?

Perhaps Dafydd Owain brought it back with him on the way back from Scotland?

[jemtheflute]

Yes, it is rather lovely. Here's a clip of it (bringing this Whistle Forum thread back home a little!):Codiad yr Hedydd (CE-B). It's a slightly dodgy take (some poor synchronisation and a bit much reverb) from a Hogiau'r Gororau demo - myself on flute and whistle, Gary Northeast on accordian and Kevin Mercer on fiddle (I think there's some fiddle in there - not sure/can't remember). Not too bad, though. It'd go a bit faster for the John Anderson song.

[jemtheflute]

Yikes, this gets worse! I've just spent a few minutes Googling Elizabeth Grant. Didn't find very much save that she was known as a "song-writer" plus mention of one other song attributed to her, but it seems she was a Scot! (Presumably that's why she doesn't seem to appear in the WDB as one might have expected.) She came from Carron, Moray, from a military family, but ended up in Bath. Funnily enough, I'd already noticed quite a few of the Google hits for her and for Rising of the Lark were Scottish connected websites! So why would John Ceiriog Hughes have written Welsh verses to "her" melody and why is it generally known as a Welsh tune/used as a Welsh regimental march.....??????? Even without the older trail for the melody we seem to be developing, I would doubt the reliability of the attribution of the CE-C melody to her now! So far we really only have relatively modern sources making these attributions by repeating mentions in other secondary sources. Is there any primary evidence?

At least it seems fairly clear that old Ceiriog wrote the first lyrics in Welsh themed on the tune title to fit CE-C metrically and that there were subsequent English translations, though I haven't specifically researched that and wouldn't like to make too strong an assertion to that effect!

The devil in me might suspect that, as seems (it's) not unusual ( ). something supposedly Welsh through-and-through may turn out to be nothing of the kind, at least in origin??????? Here's a link to a snippet of a 1911 article I'd quite like to see the rest of!

[sackbut]

Marvelling at the expertise & knowledge appearing on this thread, can I go off at a bit of a tangent and ask about the relationship between Roslin Castle and Y Fenyw Fwyn, which despite detail differences must be the same tune?

The ibiblio/fiddlers website traces Roslin Castle back to 1740s in Scotland; I can't find any internet reference to Y Fenyw Fwyn in Wales before 1880s.

Yet the Welsh tune somehow sounds older, and makes Roslin Castle sound like a sentimentalised version. Of course that proves nothing.

Any ideas or info?

[jemtheflute]

Marvelling at the expertise & knowledge appearing on this thread, can I go off at a bit of a tangent and ask about the relationship between Roslin Castle and Y Fenyw Fwyn, which despite detail differences must be the same tune?

The ibiblio/fiddlers website traces Roslin Castle back to 1740s in Scotland; I can't find any internet reference to Y Fenyw Fwyn in Wales before 1880s.

Yet the Welsh tune somehow sounds older, and makes Roslin Castle sound like a sentimentalised version. Of course that proves nothing.

Any ideas or info?

Aaaaaagh! Purlease! Not that I have any objection to the question or trying to investigate it, just not in this thread which is already in its third incarnation ....... I had as it is wondered whether we should ask a Mod to separate the Codaid part into a new thread of its own!

Besides, I don't think I know Y Fenyw Fwyn, at least, not by title. I suggest you post dots and links in a new thread and see where it goes!

[jemtheflute]

Onwards!
I found an online Open Source downloadable pdf (75MB!) of Edward Jones Vol 1 3rd edn of 1808, which as luck would have it includes both Codiad and DyGW - there's an interesting variation with the latter and Jones's footnote to the theme is amusing in the context of this thread! No joy with John Parry Dall, though.

Here's Jones's DyGW:


And here is his Codiad - clearly enough CE-C plus extravagant harp variations.

[benhall.1]

Well, come on then. Don't keep things from me. Where's the link to the big downloadable file? Wanna dowload the big file. Wannit wannit wannit.

Wannit NOW!!!!!

[Geraint]

Yikes, this gets worse! I've just spent a few minutes Googling Elizabeth Grant. Didn't find very much save that she was known as a "song-writer" plus mention of one other song attributed to her, but it seems she was a Scot! (Presumably that's why she doesn't seem to appear in the WDB as one might have expected.) She came from Carron, Moray, from a military family, but ended up in Bath. Funnily enough, I'd already noticed quite a few of the Google hits for her and for Rising of the Lark were Scottish connected websites! So why would John Ceiriog Hughes have written Welsh verses to "her" melody and why is it generally known as a Welsh tune/used as a Welsh regimental march.....??????? Even without the older trail for the melody we seem to be developing, I would doubt the reliability of the attribution of the CE-C melody to her now! So far we really only have relatively modern sources making these attributions by repeating mentions in other secondary sources. Is there any primary evidence?

At least it seems fairly clear that old Ceiriog wrote the first lyrics in Welsh themed on the tune title to fit CE-C metrically and that there were subsequent English translations, though I haven't specifically researched that and wouldn't like to make too strong an assertion to that effect!

The devil in me might suspect that, as seems (it's) not unusual ( ). something supposedly Welsh through-and-through may turn out to be nothing of the kind, at least in origin??????? Here's a link to a snippet of a 1911 article I'd quite like to see the rest of!

Yes. I went after this last night too, and started to write it up before collapsing of exhaustion, stress and bad fingerips (both of 'em) from all this unaccustomed typing. Jem has summarised what I found above, but I may as well post the sources and suppositions. As I said above, the best-known tune with the title of Codiad yr Ehedydd is the one which Jem has called CE-C

Ok, so on the site I quoted it's said that an Elizabeth Grant wrote the melody. Note the dates given her - 1745 -1814.- as there are indeed at least two Elizabeth Grant's who were poets or 'songwriters'. So, it seems clear that it's the 1745-1814 EG who is relevant to us here (probably)

http://www.musicanet.org/robokopp/welsh/risethou.htm

Here

http://www.contemplator.com/scotland/roywife.html

we find that

[/quote]Roy's Wife is a traditional Scots melody. These words were written by Elizabeth Grant (1745-1814). In a letter dated 1793, Burns wrote that he had original words for Roy's Wife by "the lady who composed it." [/quote]

and

[/quote]Elizabeth Grant was born to Scottish parents in Ireland. She married her cousin. She was known as Elizabeth Grant so she would not be confused with another songwriter who was also Mrs. Grant. Her husband died in 1790. She later married a doctor, Mr. Murray and lived in Bath until her death. [/quote]

Here we are told that The Rising of the Lark is a 'Traditional Scottish Song' written by EG with the same dates.

http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_lark.htm

but the lyrics quoted are different to those one the musicanet site above. Hmmm.

Here, it's said that EG composed the tune to 'Owen Glydyr's [sic, recte 'Glyndw^r'] Warsong', with words by Mrs Hemans.

http://www.musicanet.org/robokopp/welsh/sawyethe.htm

Seemingly she is referred to in these sources, none of which I have access to:

http://musicsack.com/PersonFMTDetail.cf ... =100119571

So, did EG write melodies, or just words? Could it be that she heard the Welsh tune and wrote words for it, getting in before Ceiriog? She came to live in Bath, which is close enough to Wales. If she wrote a tune with connections to Glyndwr, she'd obviously have had an awareness of Welsh history - unless Mrs Hemans took her tune and added the Welsh connection? Maybe someone can get hold of more info on her from the sources quoted in musicsack above. It would indeed be good to get some nice primary evidence.

And yes, Jones' Relicks... where, where, where?

[Ceili_whistle_man]

This is facinating stuff, a bit like a book that you can't put down, wondering what the next turn of the page will bring.....and a nice change from those 'Hi, I'm a newbie, which is the best whistle?" type of question. Not that there is anything wrong with that, keep them coming, folks.
This is getting more and more like a case for Inspector Morse...I wonder what the episode would be called?
'The paper dragon'....?

[jemtheflute]

Well, come on then. Don't keep things from me. Where's the link to the big downloadable file? Wanna dowload the big file. Wannit wannit wannit.

Wannit NOW!!!!!

Lazy b****rs! How d'you think I found it? I just Googled on the title and it was the top hit! There are also several copies of various editions available at "interesting" prices from antiquarian book sellers! I can't imagine why and hardly thought that anyone would want it......!

Unfortunately only V1 seems to be available - no Vs 2 or 3 available online high in the Google results. V1 is about 2/3rds text only on the stuff you'd expect from the title - historical and pseudo hostorical material plus poetic/bardic etc. etc. There's only a relatively small section of actual musical notations towards the end. Happily it includes the subjects of our exploration. I guess Vs 2&3 must have a load more music in them.......

Ah well, here you go: the link. Enjoy!

[jemtheflute]

Well? We can't give up now!

Who has downloaded Edward Jones then?


Back to Codiad. I spent today with Robin Huw Bowen and Stephen Rees at a rehearsal - they both apologised for not yet having had time to respond to my query. It was a busy day with other business to be dealt with, but Robin did briefly comment that one possible explanation for the crediting of airs by the same title to different composers and the existence of mutiple unrelated melodies with the same title might be (if I got his drift aright - I hope I don't misrepresent it) that in Wales it was at least in part a common practice to give the title of a well known piece of poetry/lyrics to the metrical form it represented, and thence any melody that fit that verse meter/structure would be referred to by the same title: i.e. it has very little to do with actual melody.

Which, if relevant to our case, kinda makes the whole thing rather impossible to determine in the terms in which we have been approaching it. There remain other possibilities, of course, and tracing better source material - primary or much closer and more specific secondary still matters. Also, Robin's suggestion doesn't really deal with the apparent non-authorship of CE-C by Elizabeth Grant despite the many references crediting it to her as it does seem to predate her significantly - one of the few things we have approached determining.

Both Robin and Stephen did say they would try to help or at least have a look at the question, but that may take time or not prove possible.

[benhall.1]

Gosh, Jem! A rehearsal with Robin Huw Bowen??!?! The man's a frigging genius! What was that about then? And where's my invite?

[jemtheflute]

Gosh, Jem! A rehearsal with Robin Huw Bowen??!?! The man's a frigging genius! What was that about then? And where's my invite?

Robin and Stephen (both currently members of top Welsh trad band Crasdant) are the musical directors of Y Glerorfa, the Welsh Folk Orchestra of which I am a member, as is my erstwhile pupil Tom Scott. (I drug him along!). I've been involved with it since it started (went to Lorient Festival Interceltique with it to represent Wales last summer), and met up with Robin et al quite regularly at CLERA (Welsh Traditional Instrument Society) workshops etc. for years before that. (I have sometimes been a tutor for them myself and attend when I can to learn from other tutors.)

I have mentioned these things to you before! Just you usually say you haven't time/motivation to get involved in Welsh music as well as Irish. Nowt to stop you (or anyone else) joining up/getting involved! Not too late for this years events even (see links given), except maybe for the St David's Day Wales Millenium Centre giglet in Cardiff on Sunday week.
If you can, why not come down to Cardiff and watch the gig? It'd put you right off! There's going to be a big Welsh sesh in the Cayo Arms on the Saturday (28:2:09) evening with Clerorfa people and apparently a Breton Bagad turning up later on......

Now then, you haven't answered my previous Q about the E. Jones download, nor said owt pertinent to the substantive (correct use of much ill-used word!!!!) discussion....... Come on! No slacking!

[Pammy]

They are drinking tea on the Crasdant link