Good (and affordable) aluminum low D whistle?

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Bothrops
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Good (and affordable) aluminum low D whistle?

Post by Bothrops »

After playing whistles for about a decade I moved to stringed instruments and neglected the former for a few years.
I want to come back, but I want something new to motivate me. I really want an aluminum low D, but I don't know which one would be a good choice, since I see there are a lot of new brands and models.
I would like a tunable whistle, with good volume and as cheap as possible 😅 (ideally around/below $150). Is there anything like this?
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Re: Good (and affordable) aluminum low D whistle?

Post by fatmac »

Tony Dixon, Shearwater, Kerrywhistles, just some that I know of - however a very nice low D is a Howard, but it's brass, I really like mine. :thumbsup:
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Re: Good (and affordable) aluminum low D whistle?

Post by pancelticpiper »

About recent brands and models I wouldn't know, because I went through my big Low D Whistle buying, borrowing, and evaluating spree a few years ago.

What I did find was that in Low D's you get what you pay for.

If by "good" you mean a Low D that plays well, like

-good tuning in the full usual gamut used in ITM
-good even solid voicing throughout
-a solid Bottom D
-solid low range
-a 2nd octave that's not harsh or finicky
-good air efficiency
-nimbleness/responsiveness going between registers (not stiff)
-nice tone, neither too bland nor too rough

and if by "affordable" you mean, as you say, around $150 new from the maker, then in my experience there's no such beast.

There weren't all that many Low D's that ticked all the above boxes, and they were (as I recall) around $250 to $350 new from the maker.

Which doesn't mean that you won't come across a good Low D used that's in your price range. My Goldie whistles in Low C and Low D were both bought used for considerably less than a new one would cost directly from Colin.

I think the closest thing to a "good and affordable" Low D that I've played as been the Susato. I've owned three Susato Low D's and they're good players, ticking most of the boxes above. They have a powerful Bottom D, strong low range, non-harsh high range, good tuning, and even voicing. Few are the aluminium Low D's that can match the Bottom D of the Susato.

However while they're loud their tone is somehow thin, somewhat lacking in character, though I should say that Susatos retain character in the 2nd octave while many aluminium Low D's with rich low octaves have bland 2nd octaves.
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Re: Good (and affordable) aluminum low D whistle?

Post by Narzog »

The UK pound has completely tanked in value in the last month or 2 so buying anything from the UK is sheaper than it was by a good percent.

I was going to say to get an MK kelpie low D, but I just saw that its sold out. You may be able to try and buy an MK used. They cost a big but to me the yare worth the money. I have a Kelpie low F and its excellent, tuning is spot on. And I love my MK pro low D.

An honorable mention is Alba, which will be tunable and is also fairly affordable. Should be about $170 ish shipped worldwide. My Alba F has a slightly weird tuning curve but its also an old used one, that may be improved in new ones. Minus the weird tuning, albas are excellent.

I did not enjoy any kerry whistles I've had. Just didn't like the tuning curve, bad moisture issues, didnt like the breath curve. Other peoples experiences may be better. I wasnt a fan.

I've only played a dixon high D and its ok but I dont think of Dixons as spectacular, but they are fine for the cost.

One budget whistle that comes to mind is Susato. I have a low E. Strong low end, stellar tuning, high end isnt too hard to play. Very affordable, for low whistle standards. Susato have a bit of a weird tone, and they are a bit finnicky to play. To my knowledge, people seem to liek the tone of the low susatos more than the high ones. But once you are used to it, it should be a solid whistle.
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Re: Good (and affordable) aluminum low D whistle?

Post by Tremendouz »

If MK Kelpie plays anything like the MK Pro, I might suggest it. However it's non-tunable which is a big no-no for me personally since I record over backing tracks. I managed to find my MK Pro for €150+shipping used but that was a very very good deal.

I tried Chieftain V5 from Kerrywhistles. The playability kind of reminds me of the MK Pro: quite a lot of backpressure (I like that for breath vibrato), very responsive to octave changes and ornaments and the 2nd octave is slightly sharp unless you tune the whole whistle down a bit and blow the first octave a bit harder. This makes for nice balanced volume between the octaves. The shape and design of the windway between these 2 whistles is kinda similar as well as the finger hole spacing and sizing which might explain some of the similarities.

However (and this is big to me), the Chieftain has a way more mellow and airy sound which I didn't personally like that much, although the 2nd octave was very pleasant because of this. I've heard the Kerry Optima is a bit less airy so sound-wise it might have been more my taste but since I love my MK, I don't really have a reason to try the Optima now.

I really like the sound of my plastic Tony Dixon but the bell note is weak and the whistle is overall on the "sensitive" side when it comes to breath control (it likes to let out little squeaks if you're not careful) and the volume isn't as balanced between the octaves as it is in the MK Pro and Chieftain. I've been curious about the aluminum one which has a different body (cylindrical instead of conical) but I haven't been able to find direct comparisons between the two.

It's plastic rather than aluminum but I really like my Goldfinch from Poland. The sound is very pure and gorgeous and the tuning is very good, although the higher notes get a bit flat if you don't push them more. It has very low air requirement and not much backpressure so the push is not an issue, however the volume is again not as balanced between the octaves as it is in the MK Pro and Chieftain. The responsiveness to ornaments and octave changes doesn't feel as snappy as with the other whistles but I love it for slow airs.
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Re: Good (and affordable) aluminum low D whistle?

Post by Narzog »

Tremendouz wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:10 pm If MK Kelpie plays anything like the MK Pro, I might suggest it. However it's non-tunable which is a big no-no for me personally since I record over backing tracks. I managed to find my MK Pro for €150+shipping used but that was a very very good deal.

I tried Chieftain V5 from Kerrywhistles. The playability kind of reminds me of the MK Pro: quite a lot of backpressure (I like that for breath vibrato), very responsive to octave changes and ornaments and the 2nd octave is slightly sharp unless you tune the whole whistle down a bit and blow the first octave a bit harder. This makes for nice balanced volume between the octaves.
The sharper second octave is interesting, my alba has the same issue. I always expected the Chieftain V5 to have a flat second octave, similar to the thunderbirds. Due to having open sides. Does the V5 have filled sides in the mouthpiece similar to MK's? I think it causes the sharp second octave if they are over filled. In my Albas case, pulling the slide out more to make the second octave not sharp messed up the intonation. You had to blow harder for ooo ooo to be in tune than second octave xxx xxx. It felt super weird.

On recording with non tunable, if your room you record in is very close to the room temperature the whistle is fixed for, the tuning is perfect. In my case for my room my Kelpie is spot on so not being tunable has no issues. And I never touch my tunign slides on my tunable ones. If you went to different places to record that can be the wrong temperature, then kelpie would definitely have issues. What's funny with mine, is I bought an MK Pro used, and he shipped me a Kelpie. Then realized he accidentally said it was a pro in the listing (I didnt ask for pictures lol). We worked it out and he gave me a big discount so it works out in the end. But if I played live I'd have to get a pro.
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Re: Good (and affordable) aluminum low D whistle?

Post by Tremendouz »

Narzog wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 11:28 pm
Tremendouz wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 9:10 pm If MK Kelpie plays anything like the MK Pro, I might suggest it. However it's non-tunable which is a big no-no for me personally since I record over backing tracks. I managed to find my MK Pro for €150+shipping used but that was a very very good deal.

I tried Chieftain V5 from Kerrywhistles. The playability kind of reminds me of the MK Pro: quite a lot of backpressure (I like that for breath vibrato), very responsive to octave changes and ornaments and the 2nd octave is slightly sharp unless you tune the whole whistle down a bit and blow the first octave a bit harder. This makes for nice balanced volume between the octaves.
The sharper second octave is interesting, my alba has the same issue. I always expected the Chieftain V5 to have a flat second octave, similar to the thunderbirds. Due to having open sides. Does the V5 have filled sides in the mouthpiece similar to MK's? I think it causes the sharp second octave if they are over filled. In my Albas case, pulling the slide out more to make the second octave not sharp messed up the intonation. You had to blow harder for ooo ooo to be in tune than second octave xxx xxx. It felt super weird.

On recording with non tunable, if your room you record in is very close to the room temperature the whistle is fixed for, the tuning is perfect. In my case for my room my Kelpie is spot on so not being tunable has no issues. And I never touch my tunign slides on my tunable ones. If you went to different places to record that can be the wrong temperature, then kelpie would definitely have issues. What's funny with mine, is I bought an MK Pro used, and he shipped me a Kelpie. Then realized he accidentally said it was a pro in the listing (I didnt ask for pictures lol). We worked it out and he gave me a big discount so it works out in the end. But if I played live I'd have to get a pro.
Yes, the Chieftain has filled/flattened sides similar to MK. I wouldn't call it an issue but it requires some adjustment coming from my cheaper whistles that have relatively flatter 2nd octave compared to the MK and Chieftain. Basically I need to get used to blowing the first octave harder (these whistles can take it without jumping the octave involuntarily).

About non-tunable whistles, I wouldn't say it's only about the room temperature since the amount of air you give the whistle easily affects the pitch by up to +/- 10 cents. My non-tunable plastic Dixon is consistently around 15 cents flat unless I blow it a bit harder than feels natural for the whistle.
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Re: Good (and affordable) aluminum low D whistle?

Post by Tremendouz »

Here's a sound example of the Chieftain V5 by the way. I had only just gotten the whistle so I wasn't used to it (and I don't have it anymore). Such a joy to play but you can hear it has a very mellow sound which wasn't ideal for me. https://voca.ro/1eQSIDH6ZNbR

edit: seems I had tuned the whistle quite sharp here. Also, family photo (Goldfinch, MK Pro, Dixon) https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... 120142.jpg
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Re: Good (and affordable) aluminum low D whistle?

Post by Narzog »

Tremendouz wrote: Sun Oct 23, 2022 1:17 am Yes, the Chieftain has filled/flattened sides similar to MK. I wouldn't call it an issue but it requires some adjustment coming from my cheaper whistles that have relatively flatter 2nd octave compared to the MK and Chieftain. Basically I need to get used to blowing the first octave harder (these whistles can take it without jumping the octave involuntarily).

About non-tunable whistles, I wouldn't say it's only about the room temperature since the amount of air you give the whistle easily affects the pitch by up to +/- 10 cents. My non-tunable plastic Dixon is consistently around 15 cents flat unless I blow it a bit harder than feels natural for the whistle.
A thing I likr about tunable, which is good and a curse, is you can tune it based on how you blow the whistle vs how it was meant to be blown. I've always wondered if I have my tunable whistles set correctly or if I have them set how I like to blow them. My non tunable forces me to play it how the maker wants haha.

but thanks for the info on the V5. I always though t it didn't have open sides. I'll add it to my list of things to try if I see used for cheap haha.
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Re: Good (and affordable) aluminum low D whistle?

Post by Naturalist »

I have an Overton made by Collin Goldie in low D, which is a very good whistle. If you are able to swing it Goldies are among the best whistles and worth it over the long term. For example, I bought mine in 2003 and still have it to this day. I think I paid around $300 at the time and if you consider the cost amortized over the past 20 years, it's a very good purchase. I also have a Nightengale made by A. Karavaev in low F which I picked up on ebay for a little more than $100 about two years ago. It has a good sound profile and is very responsive. It has less back pressure than the Overton/Goldie, and overall, the sound profile is not quite as good, but it still has a nice sound to it. I don't know if there are complications in obtaining one with the world response to the Ukraine conflict, but I still see Nightingales on eBay. The price has increased a bit since I purchased mine. I like it enough that I recommend it over some of the other mass-produced whistles out there.
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Re: Good (and affordable) aluminum low D whistle?

Post by pancelticpiper »

The octave relationship thing is very interesting!

Each maker has to decide where they're going to set the pitch of each octave vis-a-vis the other.

There's a middle ground where most good Low D's are set, for example the Low D's by Goldie, Reyburn, Lofgren, Susato, etc.

I prefer that middle ground because it gives a nice compromise regarding various performance characteristics.

For sure there are advantages to having a sharp 2nd octave, and advantages to having a flat 2nd octave, and yes some makers go there.

One thing is the volume differential that's built in to Low D's as a species. When playing Low D's along with flutes it becomes apparent that in the mid and high notes of the 2nd octave I'm as loud as several flutes, while in the mid and low notes of the low octave I'm softer than a single flute.

A sharp 2nd octave corrects that to some degree. On the half-dozen MK's I owned the 2nd octave was sharp meaning that to get the octaves in tune I had to overblow the low octave nearly to the point of breaking up, and underblow the 2nd octave nearly to the point of falling down. In other words the low octave was as loud as the system allowed and the 2nd octave was as quiet as the system allowed. Besides equaling out the volume of the octaves this made for a very easy 2nd octave and very nimble going between octaves.

It was easy to get used to this blowing on the MK, and I played MK's as my primary instrument for a few years.

The problem with it is that you can't back off much on the 2nd octave notes for expressive purposes; they just fall to the low octave.

That's the biggest advantage, seems to me, with whistles tuned the opposite way, with a flat 2nd octave. You have to overblow the 2nd octave notes to get them sharp enough, meaning that you can back off a ton, and the note can fall quite a bit in pitch while remaining in the 2nd octave.

The trouble is that you have to underblow the low octave to get it flat enough. Obviously this underblowing of the low notes and overblowing of the high notes makes the volume differential between the octaves worse.

All these things is why I ended up playing Colin Goldie Low Whistles. They're the best balance between all these factors I've come across.
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c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
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