Whistle finger holes

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Allen
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Whistle finger holes

Post by Allen »

Is there a formula for calculating the size and spacing of whistle finger holes ?
Just curious, that's all !

Allen
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chas
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Post by chas »

Charlie
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Daniel_Bingamon
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Post by Daniel_Bingamon »

http://www.kingsmills.us/flute-diatonic.xls

Actually, I have a new spreadsheet that is more accurate than TWCALC. I will be updating TWCALC shortly.
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Ctrl Alt Del
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Post by Ctrl Alt Del »

http://www.kingsmills.us/flute-diatonic.xls

Actually, I have a new spreadsheet that is more accurate than TWCALC. I will be updating TWCALC shortly.
Daniel, thanks for the pointer to your website. Some interesting things about instrument building. I want to have a go at making my own whistle, mainly for a bit of fun, but also so I can get to 'know' the whistle a bit more.[/code]
I find that I need rebooting every now and then!
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Feaorn
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Irrational hole placement?!

Post by Feaorn »

Hello!

This is my first post in here! As English is not my native language, I hope I will form my thoughts clearly enough not to be misunderstood. ;)

I do some whistle-making experiments nowadays, basing mainly on FLUTOMAT and TWCALC (Thanks to Thee, Daniel, for Thy great work! ;) ). Everything seemed clear and nice. One day I decided to check out the cutoff freq. performance of high D Thin Weasel and low D Kerry Pro. After typing in all the exact measurements - to my great amazement - their hole placement was drastically different than both of the calculators indicated it should be! Whatmore, I've made a whistle out of a PVC pipe with the same dimensions to Thin Weasel's and my results were still different!

In my Weasel-copy the lowest hole was placed 40 mm from the bottom of the whistle and it worked out very well, in tune. But how is that possible, that Glen's whistle with the same bore, wall thickness and even hole sizes has it's hole centered at 35 mm? 5 mm difference is significant with 12 mm bore diameter!

There are great differences with other holes aswell. The same thing appeared while checking Kerry Pro's true dimensions with those from the calculators.

I know, that sounds a bit irrational. It is a riddle to me, as the calculators seem to be fine. Inside diameter, wall thickness, hole sizes, speed of sound, air humidity... Are there any other factors that affect the hole placement? Some hidden, ultimately secret tricks? I guess it's hard to bend physical laws. :^)

I would be grateful for any kind of aid with this matter!
- Jacob
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Feadoggie
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Post by Feadoggie »

Hello Feaorn, welcome to Chiff and Fipple.
Feaorn wrote:One day I decided to check out the cutoff freq. performance of high D Thin Weasel and low D Kerry Pro. After typing in all the exact measurements - to my great amazement - their hole placement was drastically different than both of the calculators indicated it should be! Whatmore, I've made a whistle out of a PVC pipe with the same dimensions to Thin Weasel's and my results were still different!
I'll offer one possible explanation. But before that I'll commend you on your whistle making efforts. You can learn a lot, as a player, from making your own whistles. And you can learn a lot by examining and making copies of existing whistles. The Weasels made by Glenn Schultz are great examples of the whistle makers art. That said. I'll offer this explanation as to the differences you observe in the calculators and the measurements you have taken from the existing whistles. First off, copies are not always created equally. Take a look at the calculations behind Flutomat and TWCalc. They probably contain variables for tone hole efficiency as well as correction values for the head design. Some might call these "fudge factors". You can take the measurements off one whistle and place it into the calculator and get different hole positions based on those differences, just one thought.

Another thought concerns tuning. Not all whistles are tuned to the same scale. Some makers prefer just versus equal temperment, still others use a scale that works best for their ears and the music they play. So some makers purposly tune some notes flat, as an example. Unless you change the frequency values in the calculators, you will get varying hole positions. I have probably said too much now.

I suggest that you design your whistle - use the calculators to get your hole size and placement. Then check the results against your ears and a tuner or other instruments. Then make adjustments in both your calculations and design. Then make more whistles. Have fun!

Hope that sounds rational.

Feadoggie
I've proven who I am so many times, the magnetic strips worn thin.
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Feaorn
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Illumination?

Post by Feaorn »

Hello again!

Thank You for Your kind and truly rational reply! ;^)

Of course, I don't (and won't for sure) find myself as experienced and skilled as Glenn, who was a very special maker. It appears that what am I wondering about is the art itself, as You fairly named it.

I have never denied the great role of the empiric factor. In my belief, that has always been the thing, that made both playing on instruments and their making truly magical and unique. And that's what makes it fun aswell.

"But how did they get such a result?" That's the question I'm trying to solve - to find the means of hole pushing. At the moment I really don't know how to drill two identical holes on two identical pipes in different places and make them sound the same. Does it depend on the fipple construction, or some diameter tricks? Looks like I have to earn it by myself before the illumination. ;^)

Again, thank You very much! Now I am sure, that the way I am heading surely won't spoil my time!
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Daniel_Bingamon
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Post by Daniel_Bingamon »

I'm also putting the spreadsheet for keyed whistles available for download.

http://www.kingsmills.us/jubilee/flute-chroma2.xls
It's a little rougher than the other spreadsheet, but it calculates where to put the 11 holes.
6 normally open holes and the 5 closed holes with closed hole correction.

It can also be used to calculate toneholes for a straight bore keyed flute
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Dan Mozell
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Post by Dan Mozell »

Daniel_Bingamon wrote:I'm also putting the spreadsheet for keyed whistles available for download.
Do you make your keys?
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Daniel_Bingamon
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Post by Daniel_Bingamon »

Yes, I do.

This is a quick description of how I make the keys.

I use brass sheet stock and a punch tool to make the round pad.
Then the pad is bend to the contour of the hole.
I then use a piece of 5/32" square brass rod to make the levers and bend them as need. The pivot hole is big enough to pass a #0-80 screw through it.

Then I mill out the keyways with the pivot hole on the end.
On one side, the #0-80 screen passes through. The other side the hole is tapped. Alternately, you could just make it a through hole and put a nut on the other side.


The spreadsheet does a lot with the normally open and normally closed holes. With this new spreadsheet, it opens the possibility of making the Chromatic Whistles in different keys.
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