Rhythm tracks

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Redwolf
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Rhythm tracks

Post by Redwolf »

I was at a pub session last night, and the session leader commented on how people who normally practice by themselves often have trouble with pushing the rhythm when playing with others...moving ahead or behind the rhythm provided by the bodhran, spoons, guitar, or what-have-you. We talked a bit about the use of metronomes for practice, and pretty much came to the conclusion that, while they may have their place, they DON'T lay down the right kind of rhythm for Irish Trad. What we ended up wishing for was a CD with just rhythm tracks on it...no melody at all (so you can use it to practice any tune). There could be, say, a very slow and basic jig rhythm (played on a bodhran or similar traditional instrument), a moderate one with a bit more ornamentation, then a good, fast one with as much ornamentation as the player wanted to put into it. Ditto for reels, hornpipes, etc. Each track would play for a while...say enough for several run-throughs of a tune. The point of having it with no melody at all is not only to allow one to use it with any tune one happens to be working on, but also so the player can focus on just staying with the rhythm, without worrying too much about hitting wrong notes or getting fumble-fingered (since one could just jump back in without worrying about being in the "right" part of a tune). We all agreed that something like that would be really useful for those of us who don't often have the chance to play with others.

I wonder...does something like that already exist? If anybody knows of such a thing, I'd dearly love to hear of it.

Redwolf
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Post by lixnaw »

way over in holland, there's a whistle teacher who made a rhythm cd, played on the bodran. his webside is in dutch, you can click on englsh pages to read everything, but you'll have to click back to dutch pages to click on his cd "the beat conductor".
http://www.mmediahost.com/fluitpraxis/home-e.php

i don't have the cd myself, it's a bit complicated to buy...you'll have to pay by bank transfer. but maybe someone could tell him about paypall :D
but you can click on some samples! http://www.mmediahost.com/fluitpraxis/nieuwecd.php
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Post by Wombat »

The idea of having instructional CDs with melody in one channel and backing in teh other is often employed. I have a vague feeling that Cathal McConnell's instruction CD might have this feature. Of course, you want to take this one step futher.

If you have speed up/slow down software, which I think you'd need anyway to set the rhythm to what you need, then I imagine you could simply adapt a good bodhran instruction CD to do the job for you. Find one in which the various rhythms are demonstrated at an advanced level so you get a nice steady beat but some variety and life and then just feed it into whatever you are using to do the work of the metronome. Modern digital mulitrackers allow you to record at the speed of your choice and then speed up or slow down as you please. The software exists to do this on computer.
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Post by Redwolf »

Gack. I detest playing anywhere near my computer. I'd much rather have just a CD, so I can practice in my living room, which is where I usually play.

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Post by lixnaw »

Redwolf wrote:Gack. I detest playing anywhere near my computer. I'd much rather have just a CD, so I can practice in my living room, which is where I usually play.

Redwolf
i believe tony higgins bought a cd player with slowdowner. but it costs around 500$

i could buy the cd for you that i mentioned above, if you pay me by paypall.
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Post by Azalin »

Well, it's a very interesting point, but I really don't agree with this. My personnal belief is that the person who starts the set actually owns the rules, and people around should adapt to that person. If you play a reel double instead of single, then the reel is double, even though it might be played single everywhere else. I'd say same thing apply to rhythm, in theory. Of course if your rhythm is all wrong then you ought to be corrected or else the session might get cancelled :-)

So learning rhythm from a bodhran CD because you'd want to be able to adapt to bodhran players doesnt really sound appealing to me, but I'd say that playing along a bodhran CD with a very good bodhran player ought to be a lot more fun than playing a long a metronome, that's for sure.
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Post by lixnaw »

Azalin wrote:Well, it's a very interesting point, but I really don't agree with this. My personnal belief is that the person who starts the set actually owns the rules, and people around should adapt to that person. If you play a reel double instead of single, then the reel is double, even though it might be played single everywhere else. I'd say same thing apply to rhythm, in theory. Of course if your rhythm is all wrong then you ought to be corrected or else the session might get cancelled :-)

So learning rhythm from a bodhran CD because you'd want to be able to adapt to bodhran players doesnt really sound appealing to me, but I'd say that playing along a bodhran CD with a very good bodhran player ought to be a lot more fun than playing a long a metronome, that's for sure.
i don't have that cd, but i'm sure it's not made to become totally dependable on.
and it's nicer to play along with than a metronome.
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Post by Redwolf »

Azalin wrote:Well, it's a very interesting point, but I really don't agree with this. My personnal belief is that the person who starts the set actually owns the rules, and people around should adapt to that person. If you play a reel double instead of single, then the reel is double, even though it might be played single everywhere else. I'd say same thing apply to rhythm, in theory. Of course if your rhythm is all wrong then you ought to be corrected or else the session might get cancelled :-)

So learning rhythm from a bodhran CD because you'd want to be able to adapt to bodhran players doesnt really sound appealing to me, but I'd say that playing along a bodhran CD with a very good bodhran player ought to be a lot more fun than playing a long a metronome, that's for sure.
The problem is more that a lot of us who practice alone tend to fluctuate rhythmically...be it ever so subtly. So person X may start the set, but but person Y may tend to surge faster or lag, no matter how careful he or she is, because he or she just isn't accustomed to adapting to someone else's rhythm. Playing with CDs that include melody only helps so much, because you can only play the tunes they're actually playing ON the CD. If one just had rhythm tracks, one could get used to adapting to another's rhythm and playing a steady rhythm, regardless of the tune. So I'll grant you that whoever starts the set owns it, but for those of us who are just learning to play with others, something like this could be a great learning tool when it comes to adapting to someone else's rhythm.

Part of the problem too, at least here, is that there are only two sessions a month (which is still better than things seemed a few months ago, when I couldn't find a session to save my soul), so we DON'T get enough of that kind of practice day to day.

Redwolf
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Post by Azalin »

Hehe, now that's a good point. It's possible to disturb someone else's rhythm by playing faster or slower, but you certainly won't disturb a bodhran player on a CD :-)
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Re: Rhythm tracks

Post by BoneQuint »

Redwolf wrote:The point of having it with no melody at all is not only to allow one to use it with any tune one happens to be working on, but also so the player can focus on just staying with the rhythm, without worrying too much about hitting wrong notes or getting fumble-fingered (since one could just jump back in without worrying about being in the "right" part of a tune).
I'd appreciate it if someone here more "steeped in the tradition" would correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think of percussion in Irish music as "owning" the beat at all. The melody instruments (especially whoever starts the tune) set and drive the beat. Percussion sometimes emphasizes the beat, sometimes the off-beats, and sometimes skips around the beat, but isn't a "backbone" like in a rock band. It's more slippery.

In any case, any percussion backing would follow the structure of the melody to an extent, or at the very least change a bit from the A to B part, so you couldn't just jump in anywhere. I've heard some people talk about or play a "generic jig beat" or something, and that kind of percussion doesn't appeal to me at all. (Again, I'd say that's more of a mindset for modern rock or pop music than for traditional music).
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Rhythm

Post by BigDavy »

Hi BoneQuint

You are quite right in saying that a bodhran player would follow the tune. A good one will work with the instrumentalist(s) to lift the tune.

There are subtle (and not so subtle) variations in rhythm between tunes in traditional music that using the so called "standard beats" would miss.

Redwolf

If you are looking to improve your rhythm it may be that instead of using a percussion CD (you would likely need a track for each tune you were learning), try a ceili band CD this will be in strict tempo for dancing and you can play along to practice.

David
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Re: Rhythm

Post by Redwolf »

BigDavy wrote:Hi BoneQuint

You are quite right in saying that a bodhran player would follow the tune. A good one will work with the instrumentalist(s) to lift the tune.

There are subtle (and not so subtle) variations in rhythm between tunes in traditional music that using the so called "standard beats" would miss.

Redwolf

If you are looking to improve your rhythm it may be that instead of using a percussion CD (you would likely need a track for each tune you were learning), try a ceili band CD this will be in strict tempo for dancing and you can play along to practice.

David
Ah, but you see, the problem is, I need something I can practice with on the tunes I happen to be learning/interested in learning. The problem with any band CD is you can only play the tunes ON the CD. The other issue is that I may have to be very accomplished at a tune before I can keep up with a real performance CD, whereas I could use a multi-level rhythm track to help me LEARN to keep a steady rhythm while I'm learning the tune.

The idea is to give beginners an alternative to a metronome for learning to keep an EVEN rhythm. Metronomes don't come close to duplicating the kind of rhythm one finds in Irish music. Granted that, in any session, the person who starts the tune is going to set the pace and the percussionists are going to follow, but when a newbie is unaccustomed to matching any rhythm other than his own, he's going to tend to surge and/or lag.

Redwolf
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Post by Flyingcursor »

I use Band in a Box. Of course it produces MIDI but I've improved my playing a lot with it. I put in the chords, pick out a style and click "Play". Done. I can adjust the speed. I can even change the style for fun. Add a jazz swing style or something.
Of course this does mean being near the 'puter but one can burn all the rhythms onto a CD with ease.

And thanks to the people who PM'd me about BIAB.

I have been working with American "old time" music mostly. The Irish styles included leave a lot to be desired. I am in the process of creating new Irish style that should work better. If I am sucessful I'd be glad to send some rhythms around for critique.
I'm no longer trying a new posting paradigm
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