Use Your Ear, Not Your Eye

[Kysh]

Second, you have to understand that I feel no need to reply to a post that begins 'what utter B.S.'; Most of the whistlers I've met, and all I've cared to remember, have been above that sort of statement.

And yet, apart from those two letters, rh made an interesting refutal of your point re. classical music. Speaking as an intrigued reader, I'd really wish you would comment on that instead... ;)

Cheers,
Jens

I would be more than happy to, if he rephrased his post more politely. ;>

-Kysh

[John S]

"never, ever, learn a tune from notation"
Bollox

John S

[Redwolf]

Second, you have to understand that I feel no need to reply to a post that begins 'what utter B.S.'; Most of the whistlers I've met, and all I've cared to remember, have been above that sort of statement.

And yet, apart from those two letters, rh made an interesting refutal of your point re. classical music. Speaking as an intrigued reader, I'd really wish you would comment on that instead...

Cheers,
Jens

As a classical as well as a traditional musician, I can tell you that interpretation is as important in classical music as in any other type of music. Anyone who thinks that the goal of the classical musician is simply to reproduce the notes on the page as written hasn't spent much time at all in the world of classical music. Even classical choral music is subject to the interpretation of the conductor, who plays his choir as an instrument.

Redwolf

[Random notes]

Okay - here's tuppence from a newbie.

I have to learn from both. I have no musical training aside from hours of listening to music (mostly classical) and I just can't "think" the notes/fingering relationship. I have learned several tunes from Mick's whistle page; the dots tell me which fingers go up and down and the MP3's tell me what it is supposed to sound like if I ever get it right.

If you have the talent to learn by ear, then good on ya. If not, then use the dots as a map. Just remember that reading a map is not the same as actually making the trip.

I have two recordings of Bachs sonatas and partitas for solo violin. One is by a world-class violinist (whom I shan't name) that is technically perfect but "dry"; the other is the legendary recording by Nathan Milstein that is also perfect but is enriched with the great depths of emotion of which old J.S. was capable. Both men, I am sure, learned the music from the dots. But the musicality of the performance comes from within each performer.

I guess what I am trying to say is that no matter how you learn, the music itself is in you or it ain't.

Roger

[Wanderer]

As a classical as well as a traditional musician, I can tell you that interpretation is as important in classical music as in any other type of music. Anyone who thinks that the goal of the classical musician is simply to reproduce the notes on the page as written hasn't spent much time at all in the world of classical music. Even classical choral music is subject to the interpretation of the conductor, who plays his choir as an instrument.

Redwolf

I agree..

great classical musicians learn to make beautiful music using both sheet music and interpretation. By no means is playing classical music the equivalent of "biological MIDI", where the goal is to simply play as robotically as possible.

The fact that people in all kinds of genres are able to make beautiful music using a combination of sheet music and personal interpretation tells me that folk music doesn't have some kind of "mystical" (mytical?) attribute that you can only pick up by forgetting a potent skill. Granted, there may be an attribute you pick up by immersing yourself in the idiom. But that's aboslutely true of making good music in any genre.

I have learned to take things that are said on the internet with a huge grain of salt. People posts as experts on topics (and not just on whistle boards..hehe!) that by no means are they truly expert in yet, though they may be striving to become so. And people have their own prejudices and biases. I believe that someone once posted here that they would never buy a whistle that looked like a recorder, even if it were the best-sounding whistle on the planet. To me, that's bias at a level that's just eye-rollingly silly. And, certainly, you'll hear romanticised opinions on ear-learning and sheet music (and how it's utitilized) that are far afield from the practical reality of the situation.

Bottom line, in my own opinion, you can use both to good effect, provided you realize that the sheet alone will not give you a broad enough picture (though I haven't ever heard of a music-reader here yet who claimed that it did). Both types of learning have pro's and cons. Some people do better at one than the other. BOTH types of people could probably learn the harder method with an small level of skill if they took the effort to...

[Azalin]

I'm sure all those arguments about classical music are valid, but here we're talking irish music or dance music, so no matter how well you'll interpret the dots, if you really wanna make music that will make people want to stand up and dance (on jigs or reels or other thythms), you'll learn your stuff by ear and you'll try to reproduce the special swing, and for many of us it's a quest of a lifetime.

Anyway, the day I hear a good ITM musician (good = good phrasing, energy and swing) learning the music from the dots, I'll have to admit that I'm wrong but until then, prove me wrong

[StevieJ]

I sometimes play with some people who are classicaly trained and just perfect, *too* perfect. Although the music itself is flawless, playing with those people ends up being the most boring experience ever.

Isn't that down to those people's musicality, not their training?

I think the term "classically trained" is pretty meaningless, since it is generally used to describe anything from someone who had six months of violin lessons as a ten-year-old through to concert soloists.

Let's face it, a lot of people seek refuge in folk music because they have no hope of playing classical music at a decent level. I'm one of them! Whether they are capable of playing Irish music at a decent level depends a lot on their innate capacity for expression, and their ability to hear, and willingness to work.

Chances are, those boring classical players you have experienced would be just as boring playing any kind of music.

[Lizzie]

I have found a soution that works for me, and it is not a case of either or.......I can pick out tunes I know quite easily so I am not without an ear, However, I am old enough to have not the greatest memory in the world, and that hinders learning by ear, for if I learn one section, my memory of it is gone before I get to the next; it makes for a laborious process.

What I have done is find recorded music and sheet music for the piece I want to lean. I then put it onto Slowdowner. I play it a number of times at real speed, then slow it down and try to play along as I read the music. I alternate between this and just playing with the sheet music until I get fluency with the note patterns etc. Then I continue to play along with the recording at a slow pace, gradually increasing the speed as I get better. It is better if I have music with not too much ornamentaion so I can hear the basic tune easily; later I just do my own ornamentation.
And, it is good for review to play along with someone...more fun than playing alone. And I get to play along with some very fine musicians!Sure works for me!

liz

[Cayden]

Anyway, the day I hear a good ITM musician (good = good phrasing, energy and swing) learning the music from the dots, I'll have to admit that I'm wrong but until then, prove me wrong

OK Az, I saw Tommy Keane at a concert on saturday and himself and Jacqui played a tune they found in O'Neill's, not a bother on them. Loads of people I know go through books looking for rare tunes.

I can't believe this thread is rearing it's head again.


The point is not ofcourse how you learn your tunes, it is important though where you acquire the music, it's commonly agreed that those who come from the outside will have to work harder at it to get as good as those who grew up with it, but it is a language that can be learned and learned well by the few who put in the effort.

Interpretation of irish tunes, or better put: the language used in Irish tunes is different from that used in classical music, for that reason wellknown violinists like Yehudi Menhuin and Nigel Kennedy have been known to make total arses of themselves trying to do the diddly thing.

Pat Mitchell put it like this:

While Irish traditional dance music may not have reached the level of development of Indian classical music, when played well it is a multi-layered music full of subtlety and variation. Thescale of Irish traditional dance music is very different to that of western European art music or other harmony-based music such as jazz. Both of these musics tend to move in broad harmonic sweeps. By comparison, Irish traditional dance music changes on a microscopic scale with, for instance, small variations in the timing of a grace note played at or near the end of a note greatly altering the effect of the graced note for those who can perceive it. My own personal experience suggests that those brought up only on harmonic music cannot actually hear all that is going on in good Irish traditional dance music performance unless they spend a great deal of time educating their ear.

It's just that skill you hope to acquire by learning by ear.

[Azalin]

Hey Peter, those folks you're talking about havent learned their music with the sheet, and there's a big difference between learning tunes from the sheet when you've been listening to ITM for years and years than the other way around.

Just show me a person who learned all of his/her ITM from sheet music, and is fun to play with and sounds good, and I'll gladly admit that it's possible.

[Redwolf]

I'm sure all those arguments about classical music are valid, but here we're talking irish music or dance music, so no matter how well you'll interpret the dots, if you really wanna make music that will make people want to stand up and dance (on jigs or reels or other thythms), you'll learn your stuff by ear and you'll try to reproduce the special swing, and for many of us it's a quest of a lifetime.

Anyway, the day I hear a good ITM musician (good = good phrasing, energy and swing) learning the music from the dots, I'll have to admit that I'm wrong but until then, prove me wrong

I disagree. There's a huge difference between "learning a tune by ear" and being "immersed in the tradition." A person who is immersed in the tradition will play the music with the right "swing," even if they learn the tune from printed music...and I think all of us here who use printed music have emphasized the importance of doing a lot of listening! You don't suddenly forget how to play a jig or reel just because you're using a printed medium to acquire a particular tune. If the only way to learn new tunes were to hear them played, as I've said before, most of us would have a very slim repetoire indeed!

Redwolf

[chas]

The ideal, in classical music, is MIDI -- The performer is just an interface to the instrument, like a player piano. And it sounds it.

And the conductor makes no difference either, right?

I've got a half-dozen recordings of Dvorak's cello concerto. They're all identifiable as the same piece, but that's about where it ends. YoYo Ma is probably the best technical cello player around, but he reaches his Peter Principle when he tries to play a romantic concerto -- his performance of Dvorak is just a little mechanical for my taste. Ofra Harnoy, OTOH may be an echelon down from YoYo in technique, but she bleeds that concerto for every tear it's worth.

It can be the same even with a huge orchestra. I have a few recordings of Holst's the Planets, and two are completely different in the phrasing -- staccato more staccato, different accents, different notes drawn, different crescendos. It's far from mechanical, and it's not all in the sheet music.

[Azalin]

Chances are, those boring classical players you have experienced would be just as boring playing any kind of music.

Hmmm, I'm not sure about that, but I guess it's not an objective matter. I enjoyed myself a lot the few times I went at a classical music concert (Years ago I went a few times with a woman who was teaching the classical flute) and I actually liked it, but I had to adapt to the style to really appreciate. Those musicians moved me a lot, but it's the actual music that moved me, I didnt even realize that there were individual musicians in the room. With irish music, I can feel each and everyone's expression.

I'm kinda pretty sure that the "boring" classicaly trained musicians I've heard are most of the time awesome musicians, in their own style, but a lack of willingness to open up to the differences ITM brings really shows in their music.

[Azalin]

I disagree. There's a huge difference between "learning a tune by ear" and being "immersed in the tradition."

Well, I'll have to agree with you 'cause what you just said is exactly what I said in the previous post. But let's be realistic here. Only 1% of whistle players on this board were "immersed in the tradition" and learned with dots, the rest havent been immersed at all. C'mon, if you call listening to Solas, Dervish and Lunasa an immersion, I'd rather have them learn from the dots and stop listening

[Darwin]

I disagree. There's a huge difference between "learning a tune by ear" and being "immersed in the tradition."

Well, I'll have to agree with you 'cause what you just said is exactly what I said in the previous post. But let's be realistic here. Only 1% of whistle players on this board were "immersed in the tradition" and learned with dots, the rest havent been immersed at all. C'mon, if you call listening to Solas, Dervish and Lunasa an immersion, I'd rather have them learn from the dots and stop listening

Redwolf has got it precisely right.

I've barely been exposed to "the" Irish tradition, but when I play an Irish slow air, I play it exactly right--because I play it as I want to hear it. That's what I do with Bluegrass, blues, Old-Timey, and Chinese music.

Even when I play in front of hundreds of people, I try to play everything exactly as I want to hear it. Them as don't like it can ask for their money back.