Choosing first low whistle

Gnomie · Post by **Gnomie** » Fri Dec 28, 2001 3:25 pm

Here's me - female, short, smallish hands, orchestral flute player since childhood, asthmatic but enough breath to play flute and sax okay, now looking to get into whilstle playing.

I'd like a low D as I love the sound of the instrument - and before anyone comments yes I know they do vary from make to make!

I live in the UK and have seen advertised Howards, Overtons, Cheiftans, Kerry's, Susato's, Dixons, Alba's. Bearing in mind my profile above would anyone have any recommendations as to what to purchase, I don't mind spending up to £120 or thereabouts but would rather have value for money than just spend for the sake of something looking pretty!

Thanks for your help.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Fri Dec 28, 2001 4:14 pm

Hmm,

Normall I'd suggest a Dixon Low D, but with you experience (flute and sax) I think you might find the Dixon Low D too low end. My suggestion would be to see if you can locate one of the newer Overtons with a short reach and smaller tone holes.

Since you play Sax, the back pressue the Overton gives should be fairly comfortable for you, and you won't overblow as easily as you likely would most other Low D's. There are also "Easy Blowing" Overtons if you do find the back pressure or volume too much on the "standard" Overton Low D.

Although there is generally a waiting list if you buy directly from the maker (Bernard Overton or Colin Goldie) you can often find one in stock if you search the internet or call some stores.

Good Luck,

Loren

Parkwood · Post by **Parkwood** » Fri Dec 28, 2001 4:25 pm

I would whole heartedly suggest an Overton. Great sound and most importantly, has great intonation (something which many whistles don't have - even expensive ones).

I waited quite a while having ordered my tunable low D direct from Colin Goldie - but well worth the wait. I was tempted to use a store in the US that sometimes have them in stock, but it's cheaper buying direct, you don't get stung for customs charges and the whistle is made exactly to your spec.

Can't say fairer than that!

Glengary · Post by **Glengary** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 1:37 am

Would a Michael Burke Low D EZ fill the bill?
As oppossed to the Pro, the EZ does have holes that are closer together and the EZ's (and Pro's for that matter)range approximately $170 to $200 U.S. dollars. I pose as a question as I'm certainly not experienced as the other responders I've merely done some reading around the internet. I'd be curious as to what the experienced people think of the Michael Burke whistles.

[ This Message was edited by: Glengary on 2001-12-29 02:39 ]

Eldarion · Post by **Eldarion** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 7:02 am

I got both the Overton and EZ Burke Low D. When I compare both reaches, they are more or less the same. Here are some playability/tone differences.

1) The Overton has a deep "round" sound. The EZ Burke has an almost "flutier", "airier" timbre.

2) The Overton has back-pressure when you blow. EZ Burkes on the other hand, have almost no back-pressure at all. They require more air than Overtons because of this.

3) Both whistles are not quiet whistles, but Overton clearly has the edge in volume relative to EZ Burke.

4) Overtons are totally unplayable if not warmed up. Overtons are totally made solidly and totally of alluminium. Because EZ Burkes are made of polymer, it doesn't conduct heat much and hence hardly requires any warming up.

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 7:05 am

IMO, the Burke Low D's are not the best for a beginner, here's why:

I had one early on and have tried several over the last couple of years. I currently own an AL-Pro Low D. In my experience Mike's EZ-Reach whistles do not have an unusually easy reach - I mean the reach is easier than his Pro line whistles, but it still seems long to me when compared with Low D's like the Goldie Overton and Dixon.

The other, and perhaps equally important issue for beginners, is that Burke Low D's are not thrifty in the quanitity of air you have to move through the mouthpiece. One has to take breaths much more frequently with a Burke than with the Overton or Dixon.

Now I know Mike dislikes it when I say these things, but that's just my opinion based on having played a bunch of various low D's.

I should also say it is possible that Mike has shortened the reach on his EZ-Reach Low D since I last tried one.

Finally, I do think Burke whistles are wonderful instruments: IMO the High whistles are fantastic for beginners and experienced players alike, in fact I gave a Burke Brass Soprano C to a friend for Christmas. And, I believe Mike's Low Whistles are excellent as well, I just think they are best for experienced players.

Cheers,

Loren

Gnomie · Post by **Gnomie** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 8:31 am

Thanks for all the advice. Does anyone have anything to say on Howards, Alba's and Susato's??! (Just whilst we're discussing all the pro's and con's of low whistles!)

PhilO · Post by **PhilO** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 8:57 am

I have an older Howard and find that it plays much better than most on the board seem to say of the older ones. Mine has a nice deep tone, but is not quite as nice in tone as my Overton and has slightly larger finger holes thereby creating additional coverage problems. The reach is about the same. Susato is cheaper, solid, and ok but just not as good as the Overton. I recommend Overton. Now a question for you all - is there a big difference between tuneable and non-tuneable Goldie Overton Low Ds? I have non-tuneable. Looking for you on this one Loren. Thanks and Happy New Year. PhilO

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 9:53 am

On 2001-12-29 08:02, Eldarion wrote:
I got both the Overton and EZ Burke Low D. When I compare both reaches, they are more or less the same......

And,

4) Overtons are totally unplayable if not warmed up.

And finally,

...Because EZ Burkes are made of polymer, it doesn't conduct heat much and hence hardly requires any warming up.

Eldarion,

I have to disagree with some of this...

Reach:

This comes up from time to time about Overtons and the reach. Your comment makes me wonder if you have an older Overton with the longer reach, or if Mike Burke has actually changed his spacing (have we already discussed this?). The measurements I've taken from my "Standard" Goldie Overton Low D, dated June of 1999, bear out the fact that it has one of the shortest reaches, both right and left hand, of all the Low D's I've laid hands on. The Burkes I've had on the other hand have all had what I conisidered to be been significantly longer reaches.

Perhaps you could measure your Burke and Overton for us so we can get better idea? Top edge of the 1st hole to the bottom edge of the 3rd, then top edge of 4th to bottom of the 6th is the best way to measure the stretches.

Next, about Overtons being totally unplayable until warm:

Geeze, that's a bit of an extreme statement! How cold are your Overtons when you pick them up to play? At normal room temperature, I have no problem picking up any of my Overtons and playing right off.

Yeah, I'll get a little condensation if I don't blow into the whistle for about 20-30 seconds to warm it up. But I don't really find that sort of warm up necessary. Most of the time I can simply pick up an Overton, and play through an entire tune without stopping, then give a quick puff at the end to clear any condensation. Whatever builds up during the first tune doesn't bother me cause I'm blowing hard enough to keep the windway clear enough while playing that first tune.

Honestly, I really don't see how an Overton would be "Totally unplayable" if it's not warmed up..... You sure you're not exaggerating a bit here?

And about the Burke being Polymer:

Okay, just to clarify for those who haven't played the various Burkes; Mike's various "new" models do have a completely polymer encased windway that makes them virtually clog-proof. IMO, Mike has come up with something really wonderful here, and really has a leg up on many of the makers in the area of condensation and clog prevention.

OTH, Burke's (non-metal) whistles are NOT the sort of indestructible polymer that one generally thinks of, but rather a somewhat fragile (by comparison) composite material called Bakelite, if I'm not mistaken. I simply point this out because there is a huge difference in durability between the two materials, and Eldarion's comments could lead someone to think the entire Burke Low D is made from polymer, when in fact it's only the fipple plug and windway lining that might be Polymer.

Okay, now about the other Low D whistles....

Alba: I bought one about a year or so ago and it was by far the very worst Low D I've ever played. Horribly out of tune, not good build quality, and it required a huge amount of air. Just say no.

Susato: I've held one, but haven't played one - the store I saw it in wouldn't allow me to test drive the whistle, Hmph! At any rate, in the 2 1/2 years I've been reading this message board, it seems to me that no other whistle has gotten more negative reviews than the Susato Low D. Hopefully others will give their personal experiences, both good and bad, for you.

Can't remember which other Low D you mentioned...

It's interesting.....Seems to me that while there are lot's of really wonderful soprano whistles to choose from, there are only a few outstanding Low Whistles out there. Copeland, Overton, Burke all immediately come to mind. The Dixon is bang for the buck king. After that though, the picking get's slim.

Grinter makes a mean Low F, but I've been told by several people that the finger stretches on the Low D are unreasonable.

Our own Ronaldo Reyburn has gotten some good reviews on his low whistles, although I must confess that I found the stretch on his Low D far too long for my taste. Might be a good choice for those with larger hands.

Some people like Chieftain whistles, however I've found them to be very inconsistent quality wise and the sound doesn't really work for me. Still, others will no doubt whole heartedly disagree with me about these whistles.

Tell ya what I'd really like to see and hear one of these days...A Water Weasel Low D! Perhaps one of these days our man Glenn will have the time to complete that project, time will tell....

Loren

[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2001-12-29 11:07 ]

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 10:21 am

Oh yeah, The Howard Low D, that's the one I was forgetting (thanks Phil!):

The Howard was one of the first Low D's I ever purchased. I liked the tone, it's unique. The quality seems to be good and consistent (I've actually had several), and the price is quite reasonable. My only gripe? Hard to play for those with small hands. I don't have a problem playing a Howard now, but when I was just getting started, the combination of average (not short) reach and large tone holes made it a real bear for me to grapple with. A nice whistle for people with large hands, wide fingers, or some Low D Experiece under their belt. Still, I wouldn't put it in the same catagory as an Overton....

Phil,

You're not going to believe this but...I don't own a single tuneable Overton!! Mine are all the 1 Piece variety. Actually, come to think of it, what I'd REALLY like is a 3 Piece overton with separate right and left hand sections (Like the Burke AL-Pro Low D) for backpacking, mountain biking etc. The Burke is nice and lite, but one crash on the bike with that in the Camelbak...and I'm going to have nothing left of a very expensive whistle but crushed and twisted metal

A 3pc aluminum Overton would be perfect!

Anyway, sorry I can't help you on this one Phil.

Loren

chas · Post by **chas** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 11:50 am

I played a Susato low-D for a couple of years before getting a Burke Al PRO. The Susato is not a bad whistle, but would never be confused with a high-end low-D. I have no complaints with the sound, but it doesn't have that far-off quality that's the trademark of low whistles. The wind requirements and reach are comparable to the Burke. My one complaint with it is that it cracks a lot on the lowest note or two. I had thought that was due to my inexperience and desire to get a little more volume from it, but I don't have the same problem with the Burke.

All 'n' all, I am quite pleased with it. It filled a need, which was to find out (inexpensively) if I really wanted to play the low whistle, and it did that for 50 dollars or so. I like the Susato low-F enough that I'll still use it as my primary low-F unless a Water Weasel drops in my lap.

Unfortunately I have never played a Dixon, which is the other low-D in this price range, so I can't compare them. I'll see if they have one at HMT next time I'm there.

Loren mentioned wanting Glenn Schultz to make a WW low-D. I asked him recently about a low-E, which the website says is available, and about the possibility of a low-D. He indicated he's worked on them, and an E may be coming, but a D is a long way off, possibly never.

Charlie

KelticRazor · Post by **KelticRazor** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 1:56 pm

Hi All,

I've been reading this thread and I have a Burke AL Pro Low D, and just got a Burke EZ AL Low D and a Dixon Low D Duo (with flute head). If you'd like, I have some pictures to post. Does anyone have a site I can post to? Or I can e-mail them and you can post them . . .? I have shots of all three side by side . . .

MEASUREMENTS
As far as measurements, here are the results between the three:

Burke AL Pro Low D:

From top of hole 1 to bottom of Hole 3:
8.3 cm

From top of hole 4 to bottom of hole 6:
8.4 cm

Burke EZ AL Low D:

From top of hole 1 to bottom of Hole 3:
8.2 cm

From top of hole 4 to bottom of hole 6:
8.1 cm

Dixon Tuneable Low D:

From top of hole 1 to bottom of Hole 3:
7.9 cm

From top of hole 4 to bottom of hole 6:
7.9 cm

HOLES
The Burke AL Pro Low D has the biggest holes on average, and the Dixon has the smallest except hole 4 where it wins in size.

BREATH
As far as breath is concerned, all three have a nice G in the bottom octave. But the Dixon cannot play as loud down the scale to the D as the same air flow makes it jump to the second octave. This is not the case on both Burkes. The Burkes require the same amount of air across all the notes and has a nice bellnote with good volume.

The Dixon plays quite well above the G in the first octave, especially in the whole second octave. It is a bit breathy sounding, though.

Honestly, I've been looking for a Low D for smaller hands . . . I guess my quest continues . . . to the Overtons!

I like my Burke AL Pro D. I have nowhere near mastered it yet, but the pain has subsided in my fingers. And I am having fun playing all sorts of things on it now!

All the best to you all,

--KR

[ This Message was edited by: KelticRazor on 2001-12-29 14:57 ]

Gnomie · Post by **Gnomie** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 2:39 pm

Thanks all for the advice, having read these comments and some past message topics I have just ordered an overton from Phil Brown at the big whistle company, he says it can be with me in a week or so and it comes at the bargain price of £109.99 with the low whistle tutor book so here's hoping I master something vaugely tuneful on it by this time next year!

You'll now have to watch out for all my posts regarding a frustrated player who wants perfection now!

Naomi

Loren · Post by **Loren** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 2:41 pm

KR,

Thanks for taking the time to post those measurements. Having just checked my own Burke AL-Pro and Dixon, I find my examples to virtually match the yours, the only difference being my Dixon has an 8 cm span rather than 7.9.

Just so you get an idea here are the measurements from my Overton:

Top of hole #1 to bottom of #3: 8.15cm

Top of #4 to bottom of #6: 7.5cm

As you can see the left hand stretch on the Overton is slightly longer than the Dixon, but barely. However, the right hand stretch is significantly shorter than the other Low D's I've measured, including the Copeland, which by the way measures in a a hair over 7.9cm for the bottom three holes (the top hole stretch is about 8.25cm), this is why I often make the blanket statement that the Overton Low D has the shortest stretch - so far it's 4mm shorter than any other Low D I've measured, and that's a lot.

Charlie,

Yeah, I know Glenn's status on the Low D. As is often the case, I knew more than I was letting on. Glenn and I have discussed his idea for a Low D design from time to time over the last couple of years. I didn't want to get too specific because I'm never sure how much any whistle maker wants made public. But yeah, it sounds like Glenn doesn't have plans to do more work on that Low D design any time soon, darn shame

Loren

[ This Message was edited by: Loren on 2001-12-29 18:00 ]

KelticRazor · Post by **KelticRazor** » Sat Dec 29, 2001 3:34 pm

Loren,

Thanks for your Overton and Copeland measurements! I have contacted Colin via e-mail and am awaiting a response about a Low D for small hands.

7.5cm! That is almost a full cm less than my Burke.

Happy New Year!

--KR