whistle scales and tunings, again

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sun Dec 23, 2001 8:50 am

Was twiddling about with a few whistles just now (before going for a walk on the Cliffs of Moher and get the cobwebs blown away).
I noticed the B on the generation was just that bit sharper than the one on the Oak which was about 14 cents flat. Which is actually almost exactly the way I like it. My main instrument are the Uilleann pipes to have each note play a perfect harmony with the drones the notes are tuned to a slightly different scale than most modern instruments which are generally tuned to equal temperament (i.e. the octave is divided up in twelve equal parts each being a semi-tone). In this scale Fsharp and B are both 14 cents flat and the great ‘character note’ in Irish music the C natural I would bend about 25-30 cents flat from equal temperament (which is the scale your average electronic tuner is tuned to).
Now, comparing Oak and generation I notice a slight variation in placement and size of the holes.
It left me wondering, once again, about the scales whistle makers cheap and expensive tune their instruments to. Anyone out there with experience with or knowledge of the practices of makers in general or individual makers’ policies in regards to this.

As a general guideline : an instrument tuned in equal temperament would go very well with keyboards and orchestras but the other tuning will in itself sound more in tune with itself (following the natural progression of the harmonies involved) and thus sweeter in tone.

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Sun Dec 23, 2001 9:24 am

A very interesting topic, Peter. Stephen and I have pushed this one around before (I don't remember if it was via e-mail or on the board) and I came to the following conclusion: Unless I'm asked specifically, I prefer to tune my standard whistle to TET. Why? Well, my instruments are as likely to play with an orchestral (or at the very least piano) accompaniment as they are to play in a session. Many folks use them as worship instruments as well as folk instruments.

This past summer, though, I did purchase a wonderful Korg tuner that allows for something like 8 different historic temperaments. I haven't had a chance to experiment much with them, but the plan is to someday offer a de-natured version. Of course, it's not that difficult to move a tone hole around, but still, it takes time and resources to get it where you want it. I'm looking forward to playing around with it a bit more.

I'm actually looking for a good book on the subject - can you suggest one? The only ones that I've found are out of print; perhaps I'm not looking in the right place.

As far as some of the cheaper whistles, I've tested Generations, Shaw, Clarkes (old and Sweet) Feadogs and some others and found my results to be a bit inconclusive. Some did seems like they might be tuned flat, but then again, 14 cents isn't hard to blow into tune, so it could have been me adjusting the pitch. I tried a double blind taste test, but I suppose that I should have stopped my ears up instead.

Erik

JMcCYoung · Post by **JMcCYoung** » Sun Dec 23, 2001 10:55 am

On 2001-12-23 10:24, ErikT wrote in part:

I'm actually looking for a good book on the subject - can you suggest one? The only ones that I've found are out of print; perhaps I'm not looking in the right place.

Although it probably won't offer the practical help for which you might be looking, there's a new book on temperament that was recently reviewed in The New Republic. Powell's Books in Portland has posted the review at their web site:

http://www.powells.com/review/2001_12_13

Another page at Powell's site:

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?s ... 3558:23.00

includes an excerpt from the first chapter and a snippet of a rather negative review from Publishers Weekly which despite reservations concludes with, "Nevertheless, this harmonics drama will excite music geeks and music historians."

I've seriously considered getting a copy of the book for my wife for Christmas, but I'm worried she'll want to buy button boxes for every historic temperament in every key. Believe me, SOA (S = Squeezebox) is a frightening thing!

John

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sun Dec 23, 2001 11:28 am

There is a whole library on the subject, I don't have titles handy for you (have some specifically referring to uilleann pipe chanters). On the subject of boxes: a friend of of mine tunes concertinas and the odd box to comma meantone (I think) which is a simmilar sort of thing, tuned Jacqy McCarthy's concertina to go with the pipes to name just the one. It is an interesting subject as a few cents off the standard tuning may leave you with a much more sweetsounding instrument.

TerryB · Post by **TerryB** » Sun Dec 23, 2001 1:02 pm

Peter,

Ronaldo Reyburn is the only whistle maker that I'm aware of who deals extensively with the temperament issue. I know he raised the matter with me when I ordered a whistle. If Ronaldo doesn't see this and respond, you might want to contact him.

Terry

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Sun Dec 23, 2001 1:31 pm

Thank you, John. I was also able to find one other still-in-print book with a CD-ROM demonstrating the temperaments - "Musical Temperaments" by Erich Neuwirth.

Thanks again,
Erik

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Sun Dec 23, 2001 2:05 pm

Peter and group,

It sounds like you have a pitch/frequency deviation and I would hazard to guess that it is the differnce between "Equal Temperment" and "Just Intoned Temperment".

Equal Temperment,as was stated, is based on an equal divisions of 200 cents between all semitones for a total of 1200 cents in one octave.

Just Intoned Temperment is based on the natural harmonic series of frequencies sometimes refered to as "tone color". Harmonics are the "less than dominant" tones that are part of the combined sound in a tone.

(When a player opens a speaker key or "overblows" the next mode she/he is silencing the dominant tone and the next harmonic scale in line becomes dominant.)

Just intonation is the natural seperations between semitones based on the intergers between harmonic frequencies. Some musicians feel that this scale is more suited to the human ear.

If,on the other hand,you speak of the "Highland Scale" then the seperations of semitones(in cents)are...
200/150/150/200/150/150/200
This is why most people feel that the Highland Scale sounds flat or sharp on 4 notes of its scale.

Thomas Hastay.

Note: A good reference book for scales is...
"Music,Physics and Engineering" by Harry F. Olson. ISBN# 0-486-21769-8 Available at Barnes and Nobel(for one).

Reyburnwhistles · Post by **Reyburnwhistles** » Sun Dec 23, 2001 4:25 pm

As Terry has mentioned, I have been offering whistles tuned to either "Equal" or "Just" temperament. I find that the "Just" tuned instrument plays with an evenness of tone due to the alignment of the overtones (as Thomas has pointed out) and to my ear sounds like the more pefect scale. However if one is used to the "Equal" tuned scale then some adjustment may be necessary to the ear of the player. Also, when using the "Just" tuned instrument, some difficulty may arise when playing with fretted instruments or other wind instruments tuned to "Equal" temperament. Personally I have both and use the one that is appropriate in the moment. I will use my "Just" tuned whistle with voice or violin (and the like) or solo and my "Equal" tuned instrument for the rest.
Its nice to have a choice!!!
Be well Ronaldo

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Sun Dec 23, 2001 4:58 pm

This is a well-timed discussion for me. So, I'm wondering if a Just tuned low whistle would be that difficult to blow into tune with fretted instruments. Would it sound that much out of wack with everyone else? As I play 90% of the time by myself (in the bedroom with the door closed), hearing the sounds of the instrument for what they are right up against my face is a crucial part of my enjoyment. But, I've also started with a new band and I wouldn't want to sound discordant there, either. It's never simple.
Tony

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Mon Dec 24, 2001 5:44 am

Thomas, I was thinking of just intoned temperament as tuning for the Uilleann pipes (the highlands don’t figure much in my thinking for whatever reason). This tuning will give me a scale on the chanter In which every note plays in harmony with the drones and also enables much more complex harmonies with the regulator chords (some combination which would definitely be out of tune in equal temperament give beautiful tension chords in just intonation: listen to the beautifully weird harmonies Ronan Browne creates on his new CD The wynd you know and if you are not into the pipes just listen to him playing a lovely set of reels and the stunning job he makes of ‘An Riabh Tu ag an gCarraig?’ both on an indian bansuri).

I am not sure to what extend this is relevant in tuning whistles, the Oak I had here was as close to just intonation as I could get it and it definitely was more sweet and pleasant sounding than those who weren’t. The Generation seemed to be somewhat in between, the Fsharp was 14 cents flat which is fine but most other notes were more or less spot on (with the equal temperament tuner). I haven’t looked at a sufficient number of whistles to come to any conclusion but am interested in finding out whether or not whistlemakers attempt to work on intonation consciously.
It is interesting so that Ronaldo does make a range of just intoned instruments and I would be anxious to give one of those a whirl to see how they work out.

Considering the older generation of fiddleplayers have an instinctive intonation which is close to just intonation (which gives them that lovely sad and sweet sounding quality) I expect it will probably work out quite nicely and closer to the heart of the music than the equal tempered instrument.

I am aware though it will create some problems with the fretted and fixed tuning community

Reyburnwhistles · Post by **Reyburnwhistles** » Mon Dec 24, 2001 2:34 pm

Peter, I would say a "Just" tuned insturment would play beautifully with the drones of your pipes. And as Thomas has pointed out this is because the "partials" or overtones are in alignment or tuned to one another. My studies have shown that for the overtones to "not" beat against each other they must be tuned to within 15 cps of each other, and that is what "Just" offers.
"Equal Temperament" just ain't gonna make it.
Ronaldo

JMcCYoung · Post by **JMcCYoung** » Tue Dec 25, 2001 1:32 am

On 2001-12-23 14:31, ErikT wrote:
Thank you, John. I was also able to find one other still-in-print book with a CD-ROM demonstrating the temperaments - "Musical Temperaments" by Erich Neuwirth.

Thanks again,
Erik

And thank you, Erik! With your lead I was able to find this helpful page at the author's web site:

http://sunsite.univie.ac.at/musicfun/tunexamples/

There are .ram files for several different pieces in four different temperaments. My wife said when she heard the final Machaut sample, the one in equal temperament,"Thank goodness they finally got it in tune!" Try the Schubert in pure temperament for a clear notion of how odd to unaccustomed ears the system sounds.

John

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Tue Dec 25, 2001 6:42 am

There is some bias from 'trained' musicians as to the proper tuning. Classic example is ofcourse Liam O Flynn's piping, in a lot of instances to the trained ear his pipes are very much well tuned, but to my ear the harmonies between the drones and chanter are far from perfect, a certain blend of harmonics lacking in the soundscape. Living in both worlds brings compromise I suppose.
I have talked the subject through fairly extensively with my friend and neighbour, uilleann pipemaker Geoff Wooff, recently we were listening to a CD of harpsichord music, mostly Bach, on which the instrument was tuned to a different temperament suitable for every piece. A very well researched project and revelation to
hear. I don't have the title handy right now but will post it as soon as I have it if anyone is interested.

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-12-26 05:31 ]

Thomas-Hastay · Post by **Thomas-Hastay** » Wed Dec 26, 2001 1:47 pm

Just Intoned instruments do match the natural harmonic scale and thus sound better with instruments that have a lot of harmonic tone color,like Bagpipes,Clarinets and Bowed string instrumets. Flutes,Ocarinas and Whistles etc. have very few harmonic overtones resulting in more "pure" tones that are less likely to have overlapping harmonic tones that blend with just intoned instruments.

The Argument over Temperment and Standardization is an old,and hotly debated one. I believe that Just Intoned instruments can play just fine with equal-tempered instruments if the player "fudges" the off key tones by increased windpressure(to sharpen)or half-holeing above(to sharpen)or below(to flatten). Highland Pipers do this when playing with equal tempered instruments because the are used to "graceing and bending" notes. I like the Idea of using 2 types of temperment for whistles,it gives me a good excuse to have 2 collections!!!WhOA!!!

Thomas Hastay.

Here are sites for more information on temperment.

<a href="http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hb ... Temperment Physics</a>

<a href="http://www.casaninja.com/christi/academ ... Temperment History</a>

<a href="http://www.hlalapansi.demon.co.uk/Acous ... tml">Audio Files and Acoustics on Temperment</a>

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Thu Dec 27, 2001 9:34 am

So I have a question,

What happens to the Em, Am and G keys in Just Tuning? I presume that Em is still viable, but what about Am and G?

Thomas: Thanks for those links; interesting reading! I found this quote interesting:

The Just Intonation scale employs two different sized tones in the ratios 9:8 and 10:9, and thus it can hardly be considered satisfactory even for purely melodic music.

What do you think? Is this true? The writer of this article was much more disposed to Mean-tone Temp.

Erik

[ This Message was edited by: ErikT on 2001-12-27 10:45 ]