Clarification Humbly Solicited

Mick Woodruff · Post by **Mick Woodruff** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:40 pm

Tony, hush! ... or I swear, I'll send you more Telemann!

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:07 pm

Oh no, Mick. I never intended to include you as deserving my derision. But, now that you mention it...

I will, in deference to you, admit I played a plastic flutophone in summerschool at about the age of 8 or 9 and I liked it. (Of course, I'm grown up now.)
Tony

Mick Woodruff · Post by **Mick Woodruff** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:15 pm

On 2001-07-12 17:07, TonyHiggins wrote:

...Mick...in deference to you...

Deference, is good

Post by **Dale** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 3:47 pm

Actually, I like recorders. The ONLY resentment I have about them is that I think whistles would be a better choice than recorders for first instruments for school children, for reasons I hope are obvious. Apart from that, I like 'em.

DW

ErikT · Post by **ErikT** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 12:23 am

Hey! What's wrong with Telemann. Leave the mann alone. (he he he)

WyoBadger · Post by **WyoBadger** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:21 am

Emma,

I prefer whistles for three reasons: 1. They seem more authentic for the types of music I enjoy playing. 2. I like the whistle sound better. And most importantly: 3. Like many of us in America, and perhaps elsewhere, my first experience with instrumental music was with a recorder. Alas, in my line of work, I'm still required to TEACH on the vile things. One can only hear "Hot Cross Buns" and such so many times before starting to develop some hard feelings. (:

Broncos and Raiders. Lander High School and Riverton High School. Celtic Soccer and Ranger Soccer. Sopranos and Basses. Whistles and Recorders. Some rivalries (and the included ribbing) are just required. But I think we all pretty much like each other in the end.

God bless--
Tom

FairEmma · Post by **FairEmma** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 10:57 am

On 2001-07-13 10:21, WyoBadger wrote:

Like many of us in America, and perhaps elsewhere, my first experience with instrumental music was with a recorder. Alas, in my line of work, I'm still required to TEACH on the vile things. One can only hear "Hot Cross Buns" and such so many times before starting to develop some hard feelings. (:

I can certainly apprectiate that one might prefer one sound texture to another - that makes perfect sense. But that doesn't quite account for the "vile," "evil" or "embarrassing" bits. (Sure I can go for the joke-y-ness of it, but sometimes the humour element doesn't translate well in this medium.)

I also know the recorder's reputation suffers badly from being assigned first-instrument status in many grade schools, and I have to wonder if the whistle wouldn't suffer the same fate were it to replace the recorder, as Dale suggests. Neither are, in my estimation, truly *easy* instruments to play well, and I'd argue that the breath control requirements of a whistle are even more exacting than those of a recorder. How long do you think you'd hold up to Hot Cross Buns on a choir of 25 whistles? LOL Just the thought has me quivering. But holding up under such circumstances is part of the largeness of spirit that is a requirement for those who teach children.

I have yet to discover an instrument I'd consider "vile," although there are many I prefer over others.

best
FE

LeeMarsh · Post by **LeeMarsh** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 12:24 pm

With tongue firmly embedded in cheek, Lee repeats from an earlier post...

<hr>
<b>From: Why some instruments need special protection?</b>

Your ... 'as nothin' ta worry 'bout. Nor for dat madder does most other instrumen's; just dem recorder thingys.

Now not all dem recorders be snobs, I mean dat fella Wisely, ya know da Undisputed King of Whistle Journalism, 'e has some dat are well a'justed. O'course wit Dr Wisely bein' a psycho-logistic type, he'd be hav'ng dem teraputic sessions wit dem if dey weren't well a'justed. But...

A few of them thar recorders 'ave ben known to look down der noses at whistles. Making snide commen's 'bout whistles not being holy enough and dat whistles're made for dem players who don't have opposable thumbs. Now don't ya know, dem recorders have there innerds swabbed with sweet almonde oil and bore oil (sweet & boring), where as the common workin' class irish whistle's innerd's are dealin' with a mixture that be a good part Guinesss. (There's some dat say d'best part's d'Guiness).

Now Puttin' the two (recorder'n'whistle) in close proxam'y isn't usually a problem, I mean the Irish know how ta walk away from an insult when dey need ta. Ne'er-the-less, ever' now and den, the Guiness gets the better of them, (don't ya know its the same reason the irish don't rule the world according to the authorities). And a fine working class irish whistle might be tempted beyond all normal restraint to rearrange dat uppity recorders fipple, if ya know what I mean. Dat's why dem recorders need protecting.

Or at least dats how I heard it down-da-pub.
<hr>
Even on recorders you can ...

Whistlepeg · Post by **Whistlepeg** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 7:24 pm

Fair Emma,
I think that what is really going on is envy on the part of whistle players! After all recorder players can play tunes in any key on the one instrument....unlike their whistling cousins who often have a bag of whistles in many keys!
Actually, this bantering is all in fun as a lot of us do play both. I can play Irish tunes on the recorder "in the style" but I prefer the more traditional sound of the whistle for Irish. Also, the ornaments were designed for the whistle and so are easy on that than the recorder. Did anyone see the Irish Music special on TV a few weeks back with Coolfin, and that fabulous piper from Spain (I forget his name) He played a lovely air on..........
an Alto recorder! Move over Friendly Giant..
Sue

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Whistlepeg on 2001-07-13 21:26 ]</font>

WyoBadger · Post by **WyoBadger** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 9:34 am

"How long do you think you'd hold up to Hot Cross Buns on a choir of 25 whistles?"

The thought is too horrible to contemplate. I could have nightmares about a room full of third graders with Generation High G's...Bring back the recorders, PLEASE!!! (:

You're right, of course. The recorder, in all seriousness, is a truly beautiful instrument. Groups like Sonus produce some amazing sounds with them, and like any instrument, in the hands of a good player a recorder can really sing.

I don't know too many whistle players who seriously dislike recorders or recorder players (although it appears that we have a few!). I'd be interested to find a recorder message board and see if they abuse us as sorely as we do them. I think that would be pretty funny, and only fair!

Anyway, Fair Emma, thanks for challenging us to question our deepest-held beliefs. (: Perhaps recorders are NOT as evil as we've always help forth.

Enjoy!

Tom

BobJenks · Post by **BobJenks** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 9:48 am

Emma,

As a lover and player of both instruments, I know what you mean about eagerly coming to this site to relax and enjoy a favorite pastime with your friends, and then finding yourself shoved, by some, into a minority that has been exempted from courtesy. Finding yourself "generalized" impersonally, through no fault of your own, makes trust a little difficult.

Contrary to the stereotype, I've never seen a whistle player flamed even once in the three recorder mailing lists I belong to, but here it happens on a regular basis.

And I too wonder why it's tolerated here.

-Bob

FairEmma · Post by **FairEmma** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 10:16 am

I started this line of query with some trepidation, precisely because I sincerely hoped it wouldn't turn into a mud-slinging contest (which it beautifully hasn't). Ron still gets a playful swat for his Denver observation and I'm still chortling over Lee's contribution (yes, she can take a joke!).

But I really have never known the lay of the land on this issue, which crops up often enough. I play and adore both instruments, although my expertise is on recorder. Yet I find myself more at home here than on recorder forae (?) precisely because my leanings are toward traditional and Early music. And I'm a big girl ... I can take the ribbing, although I must admit sometimes it doesn't feel it was intended as humour (which has got to be a bit off-putting to those novices who come to whistle via other "nefarious" woodwinds).

I thank everyone who has contributed comments here ... there are some interesting ideas to chew on in this thread, and I have learned a good bit about the various perspectives that influence us as players of a rich musical heritage, whether we play as strict or interpretive traditionalists.

I figure the heart is huge and it's a big world - we are the blessed who get to furnish it with music (to borrow from IKEA

).

my sincere appreciation and admiration for a delightful group of people
FE

Whistlepeg · Post by **Whistlepeg** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 10:33 am

I don't recall anything bad being said about recorders or recorder players other than by those whistle players who also play recorder who are only poking fun at themselves, me included! If anyone feels insulted...my apologies. As far as playing recorders in sessions it is the age old question of "historical performance practice" and tradtion. Traditionally, recorders have not been a big part of the Irish Tradtional Music Scene (neither have hammered dulcimers
saxaphones, or digeridoos etc.!) That is not to say that non-traditional instruments cannot play Irish Trad Music. But for people who are hoping to recreate an historical sound, whistle & Irish flute & pipes are the prefered wind instruments. It is much like recorder players playing in a baroque orchestra or a Renaissance consort. If they are striving for a specific historical performance practice, they would prefer to hear recorders and harpsichrds on the Brandenburgs (not modern flutes, huge orchestras and pianos) and not saxaphones or other modern instruments on pieces by Dufay, Byrd, et al. It all depends on the group's expectations. I play in "authentic" Irish sessions where you are expected to play certain instruments in a certain style" I teach both recorder & Irish whistle & I run a weekly session that while it has an emphasis on Irish Music, any instrument or style is welcome...it is more a sharing circle. I perform in Baroque Orchestras with my Baroque Alto recorder, in Renaissance Consorts with my Renaissance recorders, and in Irish Trad. Bands with my whistles. I have also played with "World Music" groups where many styles & instruments are combined.
I am not saying this to "blow my own horn/whistle" but just to illustrate a point.
The object is to have fun!! And all the dissing of recorders on this site, as far as I can see has been in fun.
Everyone here is too polite to insult anyone other than themselves! I personally enjoy the banter back and forth, sometimes generating very entertaining dialogues. Stay tuned & have fun.......(sorry for the rant!)
Sue

FairEmma · Post by **FairEmma** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 11:12 am

Dear Sue.

I enjoy the banter, too, and an opportunity to enlarge my thinking. But there certainly are folks who would not be keen to have a recorder player join their sessions and would question the ability of any recorder player to acceptably convey the spirit of Irish music (either on whistle or recorder) ... StevieJ has made this point and I understand his reasons for it. I don't interpret his comments as light-hearted banter. He's dead serious - with a perfectly legitimate line of reasoning to back up his position.

I personally mind that it's exclusionary, but I honour the aesthetic behind it.

As for the interesting issue of "historic authenticity" you raise, this is something I deal with all the time playing Early Music, where there is little to no performance context for much of the music. Some folks say it's important to keep the music authentic and I can get behind that to a degree. But at the end of the day, it's hard to be authentic when the mindset of the originators is completely unknown beyond the remnants of notation, paintings and written descriptions. At best, when you listen to Early Music, you are listening to the music intrepreted by the modern mind.

The thing I find interesting about any discussion of "traditional Irish" is the concept that it is somehow a static entity (although it certainly can qualify as a "stable" form). The erudite McCullough, in his introduction to The Complete Irish Tinwhistle Tutor, talks about the fluidity of composition and style in the 18th century - the formative period for the tradition - and reminds us that the Irish tradition is fundamentally a soloist tradition! Irish bands as we know them today are a relatively recent phenomenon ... so when push comes to shove, we'd be hard-pressed to consider them "historically authentic."

Interesting thoughts all, eh?

cheers
FE

Whistlepeg · Post by **Whistlepeg** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 12:08 pm

FE
Too true! Probably since music first began there has been debates between the "purists" and the "(r)evolutionists". Irish music has changed over the years from being a soloist tradition, or to accompany dancers, to including bands on concert stages playing for thousands! This means that now there are dozens of definitions of "Irish" or that catch-all "Celtic" music. Everyone has their own personal tastes which of course should be respected ..."a time & a place for everything under the sun" as they say. So, is there much early music where you are? How about Irish sessions? We have more Irish/Celtic than Renaissance here in Winnipeg, but if you know the right people you can find a consort or two, or madrigal group! All the best,
Sue