Clarification Humbly Solicited

FairEmma · Post by **FairEmma** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 8:01 am

This undercurrent of anti-recorder sentiment is really tongue-in-cheek, right? The humorous instrumental equivalent of ethnic turf wars?

With the possible exception of bodhrans, I don't see any other instrument on this board suffering apologias, nor do I see any other instrument characterised as "vile," "evil," or something folks are "embarrassed" to admit they might actually own or play.

If these sentiments are for real, they seem greatly out of keeping with the open-hearted character I tend to associate with traditional musicians. When I go to pub sessions in England, recorders are invariably and delightfully part of the mix - and I've heard recorder-work that blew me away with it beauty and intricacy.

So what gives?

quite curious,
FE

Ron Rowe · Post by **Ron Rowe** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 8:23 am

Rest assured Emma it is all in fun, most came to the whistle through the recorder or some other nefarious woodwind.

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 9:05 am

Actually Emma, although on this board I'm sure the ribbing is mostly tongue in cheek, in the real world there may be an undercurrent of truth.

One reason, I would suggest, lies in the recorder's volume. A good baroque-style recorder, not to mention a Renaissance-style one, will completely drown out your average whistle.

A more important reason is that many recorder players have a classical-baroque background, which can actually be a considerable hindrance to learning to play a traditional style. (I know, I had one myself as a violinist.) Many recorder players, however, refuse to accept this, thinking that all they need to do is learn the tunes and they'll be making great Irish music. The same applies to many classically trained violinists and flutists. They often just don't get it.

Put these two factors together and you have considerable potential for resentment. As a whistle player who takes the music seriously, I certainly don't appreciate being drowned out by someone who has made no effort to acquire a traditional style. And as a lover of Irish music, I don't care to hear it being played (on a whistle, recorder, violin, or whatever) with no regard for its proper rhythm, phrasing, and so on.

Might I add that I am a fan of recorders in baroque music and I know a number of top-flight players on the local baroque-music scene who trained at the Utrecht conservatory. In fact I much prefer recorders to woolly sound of the baroque traverso. But in my local session? No thanks!

ndjr · Post by **ndjr** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 9:06 am

On 2001-07-12 10:23, Ron Rowe wrote:
Rest assured Emma it is all in fun, most came to the whistle through the recorder or some other nefarious woodwind.

Yes, indeed, Ron. I came to the whistle through the ( shudder ) fife, which I confess that I still play with delight and abandon. ( Ask my neighbors...! )

It's all in good fun.

FairEmma · Post by **FairEmma** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 10:24 am

Opening caveat: My intentions are not at all adversarial.

Just musings.

On 2001-07-12 11:05, StevieJ wrote:
One reason, I would suggest, lies in the recorder's volume. A good baroque-style recorder, not to mention a Renaissance-style one, will completely drown out your average whistle.

In my performance experience, it is very hard to get any recorder (possible exception: the sopranino) to stand up to much of anything! When I play recorder with my fiddling friend, I don't carry well. When I play whistle with him, I do.

Add in all the other instruments that go into a session experience (fiddle, concertina, melodian, guitar, percussion, flute, etc.) and I really can't see a recorder stealing the show. Yet I can think of a number of whistles that can stand up to a session!

In point of fact, the recorder's hey-day was not the Baroque, but the Renaissance, and it was the Baroque period that pretty much delivered the final blow to recorders - as instrument design progressed, recorders simply couldn't carry in consort. As I understand it, most Baroque music intended for recorder was composed in the early decades of the period.

... But in my local session? No thanks!

Your point about any musician failing to develop a sensitivity to the traditional cadence and form of expression is well-taken. I'm just not sure why recorder-players would be particularly obtuse. Maybe I only know the ones who come from a tradition that predates the baroque - a tradition that is rich with "street music," dance and opportunities for improvisational expression.

A friend of mine and I do whistle/recorder duets, in the "Irish tradition," and the effect is really quite lovely. And a recorder playing an O'Carolan tune, backed with harp, can be quite ethereal.

If we were to promise to be seriously Irish, would we be welcome at one of your local sessions?

FE

[ This Message was edited by: FairEmma on 2001-07-12 12:28 ]

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 10:52 am

My intentions are not at all adversarial.

Naturally. Nor were mine!

If we were to promise to be seriously Irish, would we be welcome at one of your local sessions?

But of course. (As long as you brought your whistles

) With regard to volume, I'll let you into a secret. A prominent fixture of many of our local sessions is a recorder player. A really likeable man, a great character, good crack, a true original, and a good artist and musician. But... after five years, he doesn't get it. And I can assure you, that with his Renaissance recorder by Jean-Luc Boudreau (whose work you know), his sound can, and does, bury a ton of whistles.

When he plays, I generally don't. There's absolutely no point. For the past few years I've relied on having a much more extensive repertoire than he, but dammit he's catching up. No tune is safe!

A gazillion people have dropped hints ranging from the subtle to the offensive to suggest that he should take up the whistle. But he won't -- partly, I'm sure, because of the volume issue.

BTW, I've been to many pub sessions in England. I can't recall seeing a recorder.

[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2001-07-12 12:53 ]

Ron Rowe · Post by **Ron Rowe** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 11:03 am

I think I saw a recorder here in Denver at a session. It was being used to prop open the back door so the smoke could clear out of the bar and give whistle players some fresh air.

(Big Grin)

FairEmma · Post by **FairEmma** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 11:14 am

Steve,

I'll probably bring a few recorders, too, just because I enjoy a good challenge! LOL But don't bail ship just yet, 'cause Quebec isn't in my travel plans terribly soon.

And now I REALLY want a Boudreau Renaissance recorder!! If it can hold up to a session, I'm all for it. I don't suppose it's a tenor? Nah ... can't imagine it could be.

Yes, recorders at sessions in England - I do not fib. When there, I'm mostly in the south-southwest suburban fringe of London. Five local pubs swap Sunday session nights. I've been most often to the one held at Skimmington Castle (The Skimmy). It is a diverse mix that includes two women who switch between recorders and flutes, also a brilliant hammered dulcimer player. But you wouldn't know another instrument is in the room when all the melodian players get going!

Pity about your personable bad apple.

cheers
FE

Post by **rich** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 11:28 am

Besides, recorders put low whistles to shame.

<img src="http://www.hansmons.com/recorders/AdrBr_SubCon1a.jpg">

That's a subcontrabass made (and played) by Adriana Breuking. There also exists at least one contrasubcontrabass recorder, but I can't find a picture of it.

<ul>-Rich</ul>

DrGiggles · Post by **DrGiggles** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 11:38 am

I can't believe what I'm hearing! Flute Snobbery everywhere! Don't make me pull out my Trumpet! Recorders and Whistles can drown in my backwash!

The recorder and whistle have withstood the test of time (you don't see as many Drum and Tabor players - although I still play on occasion). To each their own... Now go drink a pint and play nice; or else I'll let my old Drum and Bugle corps have their way with you.

FairEmma · Post by **FairEmma** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 12:01 pm

Rich - that is obscenely brilliant!!

Dr G - (pouting) I thought I *was* playing nice. I honestly have never really known if the reputation the poor recorder gets here (from a board that says alto sax can fit in quite nicely with a ceili band!) was flak or good-humoured fun.

If, as Steve suggests, recorder-players (and not just the chap set on earth to bedevil him) are obtusely inflexible in nature, then I can understand the source of the irritation.

And rise to the challenge.

FE
P.S I saw Tom Zajak of Piffaro perform an incredible piece on drum and tabor. A memorable moment.

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 12:29 pm

FE & DrG: Drum and tabor - isn't that two ways of saying the same thing? Don't you mean pipe (aka 3-holed tin whistle) and tabor?

BTW (totally OT) my favourite early drum are the nakers. A rock drummer in a dance band I used to play in once turned up at a gig with a couple slung from his belt. These are my naccas, he said. I instantly understood where the British anatomical slang expression "knackers" came from.

FairEmma · Post by **FairEmma** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 12:40 pm

Dang ... caught out hyperfocusing and allowing the brain to disengage.

DrGiggles · Post by **DrGiggles** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 1:15 pm

Oops...my bad!

See what happens when you type faster than you think...

TonyHiggins · Post by **TonyHiggins** » Thu Jul 12, 2001 1:27 pm

That subcontra bass (recorder?). I'd attach a bag and bellows to it. How much air does it take just to get a flow started through the sound area?

As far as me making fun of recorders and recorder players, that's just what it is. Fun! They deserve it.
Tony