Double hole whistles?

[paddler]

To my knowledge, Ney is the singular chromatic widespread folk flute. Fingering it is relatively easy - however, "embouchure" is harder than even the side-blown flutes. Always these trade-offs.

This is probably best discussed on the World Flutes forum, but there are lots of widespread fully chromatic flutes out there, most of which date back thousands of years. Some of the others that have a massive user base include the xiao, the kaval, the bansuri, the shakuhachi, etc. All of these have various sub-variants and use different approaches for getting the required range of notes. And it is also worth noting that the western 12 tone chromatic scale is very restrictive compared to the tone systems from other cultures that produced these flutes, which may, for example have quarter tones or other intervals that just don't occur in the western 12 tone system. Take the arabic maqam system, for example, with its 24 divisions of the octave or Indian Raga with 22 divisions of the octave.

When you look into these musical genres you start to appreciate the true power of half holing on a flute like the Bansuri. It gives you many more options than you would possibly get by trying to use a separate hole for each note. Similarly, on the rim blown / end blown flutes, the ability to lip the notes up and down to hit the desired quarter tones is critical.

And when we look more closely at folk music, such as ITM, we see that even there we find micro-tonal differences for the same "note" when used in different contexts. It is far from being all 12 TET. The ability to shape the notes you want to produce is important if you want it to sound really good.

Anyway, it is all too easy to get tied up in a restrictive way of thinking about music, scales, temperaments, etc and then take this restrictive mindset into your instrument design. Great thought and practical/evolutionary develpment went into all these instruments and the music that they are an integral part of. The instruments and the music evolved together. We shouldn't disregard that.

[David Cooper]

Let me first say that I'm thankful to have this discussion with you. I love the F natural and D sharp holes on my Morneaux chromatic, but I admit that I'm undecided on the best ways to tackle G sharp and B flat, and I've always wanted to discuss the various options for handling these notes with someone who understands whistle-making (unlike me).

Well, this conversation has happened at a good time, because I was wanting to do some experiments, but couldn't make up my mind which ones to go for. Now I have a better idea of what to try and what to avoid. I actually find half holing hole 6 so easy even when playing at high speed that I'm not sure I'd want to use up a finger on a new hole for that instead of using it to close an extra hole to go down to a C (which could also be half holed for C#). I'm thinking though about what would best suit me, and that wouldn't put me off making whistles that support D# instead for those who prioritise that, so I'll likely explore both options and make them both standard options for buyers (if I can get to the point where I can turn this into a viable business).

Ah yes, what you're describing there is exactly like Skip Healy's 10-hole fifes and 10-hole flutes. And yes, I agree that this layout would make more sense than Morneaux's Mark 2, because it uses the left thumb for B flat rather than wasting it on C natural, a note that every ITM player already knows how to play just fine.

So it's already a tried and tested system, and it appeals to me more than the alternatives. I think it would have the best chance of attracting customers, meaning that it would be less of a risk to make a few of them ahead of getting orders.

Also, bear in mind that the Mark 2's strategy of using a G sharp left-hand pinky hole doesn't really work too well on smaller-bodied whistles. You kind of need something bigger to make it ergonomic. The same is true, to a much lesser extent, of the left hand G sharp thumb hole on my current whistle.

Yes, it gets a bit tight there for me on an E flat whistle, but you can always go to a low whistle for F and G and play in the second and third octaves instead, while you have extra options for playing in other comfortable keys anyway without switching whistles so much, so you could use fewer of them and a more compressed range in terms of their lengths. Also, you always retain the option of using standard six hole whistles whenever you want to go further to the extremes of size, so you aren't limiting your options.

[paddler]

Anyway, none of this is that relevant to my main point about whistles, which is that having a single F natural hole is far superior to having two keys for F natural, both of which require you to awkwardly reposition your hand in order to use them. I really can't understand why someone would advocate having two open-hole keys instead of a single hole. Like, do you WANT the key of F to be a nightmare to play?

I've never heard of anyone advocating two open-hole keys for F. All the keyed flutes I have use two closed hole keys for F, so you don't need to touch either of them if you don't want to play F. If you do want to play F then you have a choice of which one to use depending on which note you are transitioning from. It is a pretty simply and flexible system actually. Both are easy to use in practice (with practice), but neither has any impact whatsoever on your playing in keys that don't use F, so it is a totally seamless transition when coming from a keyless 6-hole instrument.

[Cyberknight]

Anyway, none of this is that relevant to my main point about whistles, which is that having a single F natural hole is far superior to having two keys for F natural, both of which require you to awkwardly reposition your hand in order to use them. I really can't understand why someone would advocate having two open-hole keys instead of a single hole. Like, do you WANT the key of F to be a nightmare to play?

I've never heard of anyone advocating two open-hole keys for F. All the keyed flutes I have use two closed hole keys for F, so you don't need to touch either of them if you don't want to play F. If you do want to play F then you have a choice of which one to use depending on which note you are transitioning from. It is a pretty simply and flexible system actually. Both are easy to use in practice (with practice), but neither has any impact whatsoever on your playing in keys that don't use F, so it is a totally seamless transition when coming from a keyless 6-hole instrument.

Sorry, it's quite late and I'm mistyping a lot. I meant two closed-hole keys for F. And I would dispute that it's a "simple and flexible" system; it's really a bit of a mess if you think about it. Two different ways to play the same note, you have to learn both of them, one involves changing the location of one of your playing fingers in the middle of the tune, and the other involves stretching your pinky to an awkwardly-distant key. This is just not a great system, which is exactly why Boehm wanted to fix it. I've heard arguments for why it basically has to exist this way on the Irish flute. Even if those arguments have merit (which I'm not really convinced they do), it certainly doesn't need to be this way on the whistle.

The open hole design on my Morneaux whistle does exactly what you describe: it has no impact on any note other than F natural. Again, you seem to think keeping it covered while playing is some kind of burden, but I'm telling you it isn't. If you practice the whistle for a week, you'll forget the F natural hole is even there when you're not using it. I've practiced using the F natural keys on my flute for months now, and it's still a huge pain compared the ease of playing an F on my whistle, which pretty much always felt easy.

[Cyberknight]

So it's already a tried and tested system, and it appeals to me more than the alternatives. I think it would have the best chance of attracting customers, meaning that it would be less of a risk to make a few of them ahead of getting orders.

Yes, but keep in mind that the Mark 2 is almost identical to the sopilka, which is itself tried and tested.

Of course, this raises the question: why not just buy a sopilka? And the answer is: because for some reason, no one in Ukraine can be convinced to make one in D major. They're all in C. (Also, I'm not sure a D one could play an A, B, or C sharp with the left pinky down, which could be a major drawback; nor am I aware of whether or not they could handle cross-fingered C natural; I'll have to buy one to find out, I suppose).

But I suppose the rationale for your proposed design is that if we're departing a bit from the sopilka, we might as well depart from it a bit more than Morneaux does and use the left-hand thumb hole for B flat instead of C natural. Makes sense to me.

[paddler]

The other problem with extra holes covered by the thumbs is that when you want to use those notes you have to remove support of the instrument at that point and make up for it some other way. So, it is doubly problematic from an ergonomic standpoint. In imposes severe restrictions on the placement of your support points even when you are not using the note, and then it forces you to remove a support point when you are using the note. That is pretty bad.

You keep telling me that it isn't a problem as if you think I haven't actually tried it. Well, I'm telling you that it is a problem, both in theory and in practice. I've given some indisputable reasons for why it is a problem. Often, with ergonomic problems like this, you don't pay the price until much later, when you either encounter limits in your ability to push your technique beyond a certain point, or worse, you develop overuse injuries. It is worth paying close, and individualized, attention to ergonomics.

With closed standing F keys, you don't have to learn to use both of them. You can learn just one if you like, or you can choose to not use them at all and just play as if it was a keyless instrument. So there is much more flexibility in how a player transitions to such an instrument.

And yes, Boehm did rework the design of the 8-key flute, making all kinds of changes, but very few people choose to use a Boehm flute for ITM despite ready availability of inexpensive Boehm flutes. Many reasons influence our choice of instruments, and the Boehm flute is not considered an improvement over the traditional conical bore 8-key flute by the vast majority of ITM players. And again, yes, most of us have tried, but just find that it doesn't suite the purpose as well.

[David Cooper]

But I suppose the rationale for your proposed design is that if we're departing a bit from the sopilka, we might as well depart from it a bit more than Morneaux does and use the left-hand thumb hole for B flat instead of C natural. Makes sense to me.

Well, we both seem happy with that plan, so that's what I'll experiment with first, and in D, of course. Do you have a preferred bore diameter?

[Cyberknight]

But I suppose the rationale for your proposed design is that if we're departing a bit from the sopilka, we might as well depart from it a bit more than Morneaux does and use the left-hand thumb hole for B flat instead of C natural. Makes sense to me.

Well, we both seem happy with that plan, so that's what I'll experiment with first, and in D, of course. Do you have a preferred bore diameter?

Not sure why my opinion would be relevant on this, but I personally like as large a bore as possible, and with a fairly large windway. I want to run out of breath frequently, because I find that it helps with phrasing. I also find that larger bore whistles tend to be better at varying their dynamics (but this could be purely coincidental based on the particular whistles I own).

[paddler]

Well, we both seem happy with that plan, so that's what I'll experiment with first, and in D, of course. Do you have a preferred bore diameter?

David, FYI the Sopilka that I have, which is more or less the same instrument we have been discussing, but pitched in C, has a bore of 14.8 mm. This is a nicely made, CCCP era instrument, made of ebonite. It has a large cylindrical bore and quite large tone holes, and has quite a nice sound. It even has a tuning slide.

Historically, the Sopilka had fewer holes. These 10-hole, fully chromatic, versions were invented in the 1960s. I got mine a few years ago on eBay, used. I bought it to satisfy my curiosity and because I was also experimenting a bit with adding extra holes to whistles. My guess is that this one is at least 40 years old.

Here are some pictures of the instrument and some of the documentation that came with it, just in case it is helpful to you. I placed its white cleaning stick inside the bore to make the tone holes more easily visible.

In terms of ergonomics, I find that the thumb holes are out of position, compared to where I would really like them, by over an inch. So it really does have an impact for me.

[Cyberknight]

Well, we both seem happy with that plan, so that's what I'll experiment with first, and in D, of course. Do you have a preferred bore diameter?

David, FYI the Sopilka that I have, which is more or less the same instrument we have been discussing, but pitched in C, has a bore of 14.8 mm. This is a nicely made, CCCP era instrument, made of ebonite. It has a large cylindrical bore and quite large tone holes, and has quite a nice sound. It even has a tuning slide.

Historically, the Sopilka had fewer holes. These 10-hole, fully chromatic, versions were invented in the 1960s. I got mine a few years ago on eBay, used. I bought it to satisfy my curiosity and because I was also experimenting a bit with adding extra holes to whistles. My guess is that this one is at least 40 years old.

Here are some pictures of the instrument and some of the documentation that came with it, just in case it is helpful to you. I placed its white cleaning stick inside the bore to make the tone holes more easily visible.

In terms of ergonomics, I find that the thumb holes are out of position, compared to where I would really like them, by over an inch. So it really does have an impact for me.

I'm curious how the fingering works on that instrument. Can A, B, and C sharp be fingered with the left pinky down? Is cross-fingered C natural possible?

[paddler]

I'm curious how the fingering works on that instrument. Can A, B, and C sharp be fingered with the left pinky down? Is cross-fingered C natural possible?

Note that this instrument is in C, so I'm going to assume that your question is asking about the A, B and Cnat notes as they would be fingered on a D instrument. Yes, the A, B and C notes are best in tune with the left pinky down. The hole for the left pinky is quite small, though, compared to the size of the other tone holes, so when it is uncovered it does not add a whole lot of venting. The intonation of those notes does seem better with it closed though. But this highlights the wide array of design choices with such instruments. Each note must be tuned based on a set of assumptions about which of the lower tone holes are covered or uncovered. As you add more tone holes you multiply the number of possible options, and each one is a separate fingering system that the player may have to learn. It is difficult to standardize this without it becoming an ergonomic problem for someone.

A cross fingered Cnat note (which on this C instrument is a Bb) is available, but not using the standard whistle fingering of 0XX 000 (ignoring thumb holes). The top vent hole is very large, so it pushes the note way too sharp when fingered that way. However, it does make it very easy to half-hole a Cnat, and that is an approach that is quite commonly used by Irish whistle players. John Sindt's whistles are (used to be) tuned based on the assumption that you would half hole Cnat, and some people dislike this.

You can get a cross fingered Cnat on this Sopilka by using the pattern X0X 000, and opening the upper thumb hole. But experimenting with these options just reinforces my opinion that it is really awkward every time you have to release your support of the whistle to play a particular note. I find that it complicates things greatly.

[Cyberknight]

I'm curious how the fingering works on that instrument. Can A, B, and C sharp be fingered with the left pinky down? Is cross-fingered C natural possible?

You can get a cross fingered Cnat on this Sopilka by using the pattern X0X 000, and opening the upper thumb hole. But experimenting with these options just reinforces my opinion that it is really awkward every time you have to release your support of the whistle to play a particular note. I find that it complicates things greatly.

Very interesting! Thanks for the info. Now I'm wondering if 0XX 0XX works for C natural (this is my preferred fingering) or even 0XX X00.

As for your continued remarks about the awkwardness, I'll just reiterate that Ukrainians don't seem to have any issues with this, and I doubt they're all superhuman.

[paddler]

Ukrainians don't play Irish traditional music on these! Different music has different requirements. And the traditional Ukrainian Sopilka didn't have 10 holes like this. This is a modern invention to try to make it fully chromatic. No doubt the traditional instrument had better ergonomics, and this was likely a strong contributing factor in it having stood the test of time. If you study the evolution of musical instrument design you see that ideas like this come up frequently, but often don't stand the test of time, for reasons that were not anticipated by their proponents. I think that is basically the discussion we are having here.

I played this for less than five minutes in order to answer your questions, and honestly had to put it down because of hand cramps. The problem for me is that the thumb holes are way too low down on the tube for my hands. For me, they need to be an inch or so higher up. If you look closely at the pictures you will see that the holes are already very small, and lined, and as high up on the tube as reasonably possible given the acoustic constraints. This is a real issue, and if the holes are in the right place for one person they will be wrong for someone else. Everyone's hands are different. The conventional whistle design, with 6 tone holes on top, is very forgiving in this regard. Most people (but not all) can adapt to it. I do not think that is the case for these 10-hole designs. They are far too constrained.

[Cyberknight]

Ukrainians don't play Irish traditional music on these! Different music has different requirements.
...
I played this for less than five minutes in order to answer your questions, and honestly had to put it down because of hand cramps.

But if your criticism about its supposedly being so inherently non-ergonomic were accurate, we'd expect Ukrainians to have just as much difficulty as you did. There's nothing magic about Ukrainian folk music that would make people's hands cramp less. If anything, they'd cramp more, because Ukrainian music uses more chromatics and thus requires more consistent use of more fingers.

Also, different people have different problems, I suppose. I played a whistle with an even lower thumb hole for years and my hands never cramped (they were slightly uncomfortable for a few days of playing and then I adjusted and it wasn't a problem).

[paddler]

I see no evidence to support the argument that all Ukrainians can play this without having problems, or even that most can. The only evidence you have offered is that you yourself can play a whistle like this and have yet to experience hand problems. It is also clear that some Ukrainians can play their music well on this instrument, but the requirements as ITM are different, particularly with respect to fast finger ornamentation. I have no idea how proficient a player you are of ITM, so I don't even know if your playing is at a level where you are encountering the limitations yet. So I think you have presented a very weak argument to support your claim that this should be a standard offering. I do have first hand evidence that it doesn't work at all well for me, and I'm able to give clear reasons for why, that are inherent to the design. Also, there are a massive number of whistle players playing Irish Traditional music who have no problems with the conventional 6 hole design, so as a maker I have no difficulty in deciding which design to make as a standard.

But like I said, nobody is trying to tell you that you shouldn't like your own whistle. This is more about answering your questions about why they aren't widely used or available from whistle makers. You are welcome to try pushing the idea, of course, but you don't seem to be getting much enthusiasm from this community. Maybe you'd have a better reception in a Ukrainian music forum and can go into production and make your fortune selling these to Ukrainians.