Double hole whistles?

[Wanderer]

I'm not going to be as harsh as some others have been in this thread. And I am only going to speak for myself, rather than purporting to speak for the entirety of whistledom.

As for myself, I have tried d+ whistles (whistles with an extra pinkie hole to go down one more note) and I've tried whistles with a thumb hole for c natural. For me, these things were curiosities, but not necessary enough for me to relearn muscle memory. So I have always ended up taping up any extra holes on whistles I've owned that have had them.

That isn't to say that others won't find those features interesting. Surely some do, as those options continue to be available from various makers. And that isn't to say that some others won't find a fully chromatic whistle interesting--though the number of tunes that I know that would require it is vanishingly small.

My feeling is that this would serve a very small, niche market. Which is not a reason to not do it. But I imagine it wouldn't take off like gangbusters. Though I've been wrong enough about things in my life to not take it personally when my opinions on things to be (as this is certainly only my opinion) aren't borne out in reality.

There are enough new, zany and weird instruments getting invented every day that I imagine you might not sell to a lot of existing old-time whistlers on the project, but with the right quality of instrument and good marketing, you might bring new people into the fold with it, and maybe after some time it becomes more of an accepted instrument. I'm thinking of things that took a while to take off, but have since found an audience, like the Chapman Stick, the Incredibow, etc.

[Cyberknight]

I'm not going to be as harsh as some others have been in this thread. And I am only going to speak for myself, rather than purporting to speak for the entirety of whistledom.

As for myself, I have tried d+ whistles (whistles with an extra pinkie hole to go down one more note) and I've tried whistles with a thumb hole for c natural. For me, these things were curiosities, but not necessary enough for me to relearn muscle memory. So I have always ended up taping up any extra holes on whistles I've owned that have had them.

Pardon me, but this comment doesn't make a lot of sense, at least insofar as you talk about D+ whistles. D+ whistles certainly aren't for everyone, but playing one doesn't require you to "relearn" any muscle memory, since they don't require any different fingerings for any of the standard notes. There is also no reason why you'd need to tape the hole on one. If you tape the bottom hole on a D+ whistle, it will screw up the tuning of all the lower notes. You can simply not use the bottom hole, but taping it is pointless.

As for C natural holes, I've never seen the point of those, since cross-fingered C natural usually sounds perfectly fine. I can understand not wanting to relearn all the tunes you learned with cross-fingered C natural, so that criticism makes sense. But again, why would you need to tape the C natural hole? You can just keep it covered; taping it is pointless.

And finally, nothing you're saying is a real criticism to 10-hole chromatic whistles like the Morneaux Mark 1. Morneaux Mark 1 whistles do not require you to relearn any muscle memory, because the fingerings for the diatonic notes are the same as they are for 6-hole whistles. Nor would you (probably) be tempted to tape any holes if you owned one, because the extra holes are all easily covered by the thumbs and bottom pinky, and if you don't want to use them, you don't have to.

[RoberTunes]

And that isn't to say that some others won't find a fully chromatic whistle interesting--though the number of tunes that I know that would require it is vanishingly small.
My feeling is that this would serve a very small, niche market. Which is not a reason to not do it. But I imagine it wouldn't take off like gangbusters.

Good points. A fast "gangbusters take off" of a new idea doesn't have to happen for the more chromatic options to be accepted commonly. This reminds me of how composition
of classical music was considerably altered when Beethoven was presented with an improved piano with better action and more notes. When the piano was invented and made
suitable for professionals, the harpsichord was then almost obsolete in the marketplace. Beethoven kicked it up a notch, realizing he could.

When instruments change, the music changes too. Whistles can and are used by people who aren't focused on the key and melody limitations or the style traditions of Irish traditional music. If the
instrument was fully chromatic, I'd bet whistles would be much more widely used, when the impression in your average music store of the el cheapo 6-hole
toys are replaced by musical instruments people of far wider tastes and talents would consider adding to their equipment list.

Just about every other kind of musical instrument has great variety and innovation being part of it's market activity; guitars, harmonicas, trumpets, keyboards, percussion,
saxophones, microphones, recording software, studio monitors, recorders, flutes, cellos, violins, bass, etc. When I see inspired and talented videos of whistle manufacturers
and whistle reviewers play whistles that are positive developments for the instrument, the player and the music, it's a good feeling.

[bigsciota]

Good points. A fast "gangbusters take off" of a new idea doesn't have to happen for the more chromatic options to be accepted commonly. This reminds me of how composition
of classical music was considerably altered when Beethoven was presented with an improved piano with better action and more notes. When the piano was invented and made
suitable for professionals, the harpsichord was then almost obsolete in the marketplace. Beethoven kicked it up a notch, realizing he could.

We're going off thread considerably, but I'm not sure where you're getting this bit of history. The fortepiano preceded Beethoven by quite a few decades, and he played a number of instruments throughout his life. The fortepiano was going through a lot of changes, and if I recall correctly he had some fairly different ones from different schools (French, English, Austrian), but there was no single fortepiano that suddenly revolutionized his playing or writing. In general with instruments, there's a back-and-forth, with instrument makers looking to players for what they want, and then finding solutions. Players pick up the news instruments, figure out what they like and dislike, what they can do and not do, and then you rinse/lather/repeat. Plop a brand-new instrument into the market without that process, and you're not likely to succeed.

To link it back to the development of whistles, there's actually been a significant amount of change over time in the humble whistle. If a chromatic whistle was wanted or needed, it surely would have hit the market already. That that hasn't happened is a good indication of what whistle players have and have not been looking for in their instruments.

In fact, its cousin the flute has gone the opposite way! Keyless and one-keyed flutes existed before, but generally speaking those were smaller-holed instruments that could play chromatically using forked fingerings. The "Irish" flutes most players play today are modeled on the larger-holed English flutes of the 19th century, which came with anywhere from 4-8 keys in order to play chromatically. Nowadays, though, keyless flutes are very popular among Irish players. We've gone "backwards" in the chromatic vs diatonic debate!

[Cyberknight]

To link it back to the development of whistles, there's actually been a significant amount of change over time in the humble whistle. If a chromatic whistle was wanted or needed, it surely would have hit the market already. That that hasn't happened is a good indication of what whistle players have and have not been looking for in their instruments.

In fact, its cousin the flute has gone the opposite way! Keyless and one-keyed flutes existed before, but generally speaking those were smaller-holed instruments that could play chromatically using forked fingerings. The "Irish" flutes most players play today are modeled on the larger-holed English flutes of the 19th century, which came with anywhere from 4-8 keys in order to play chromatically. Nowadays, though, keyless flutes are very popular among Irish players. We've gone "backwards" in the chromatic vs diatonic debate!

I'm not convinced by this argument, for a few reasons.

First, while it's true that the whistle has gone through a "number of changes" recently, that doesn't mean it's changed in every way that it can or will. Instruments take a long time to evolve. 50 years ago, the whistle was quite a different instrument. It's very possible it would change again if enough people bought and tried chromatic whistles.

Second, I will reiterate that the vast, vast majority of players have never even tried a properly-made chromatic whistle. The 10-hole design Morneaux uses is the best scheme anyone has come up with, because it allows you to play with standard 6-hole fingerings while also allowing chromatic playing. And yet, I have never met a single whistle player who owns one, besides me. When I do lend it to other players at sessions, I get nothing but positive responses. They are all amazed at how easy it is to play in a variety of keys. Yet none of them have ever tried it until I lend mine to them - perhaps because only 1 or 2 makers construct whistles with this fingering scheme, and all of them are extremely expensive. So the fact that it hasn't caught on could simply be a product of people not yet sufficiently having tried it, rather than its not being a good idea. Your comment seems to assume that ITM players always know exactly what they want before having tried it, which isn't necessarily the case.

Third, Irish music is evolving, which will likely cause instruments to evolve as well. ITM players - especially fiddle players, who aren't limited to any diatonic scales - are increasingly playing things in odd keys or in ways that incorporate more chromaticism. It wouldn't at all surprise me if people increasingly began to see the need for chromatic whistles in order to keep up with this trend. In fact, I'd argue this is exactly what we see happening with Irish flutes.

I'm no expert on music history, but as I understand it, your description of Irish flutes losing their keys doesn't tell the whole story. It is true that 19th-century flutes initially had keys. You're also right that 20th-century flute-makers started making keyless flutes, which became the most common instruments used in ITM. But the actual reason 20th-century makers did this was emphatically NOT because Irish music devolved or got less complex. It was because people weren't using the keys - in fact, players of ITM, for the most part, had never really used the keys, because they had never been necessary. They had been on most ITM-players' flutes because most ITM-players played antique flutes designed and manufactured in the 19th century for playing classical music. Keys weren't really necessary for ITM, which was usually in D or G, and pads often got warn out, so after the ITM revival in the '60s and '70s, a new generation of flute-makers started making them without keys at all.

But what we are actually seeing in the 21st century, I would argue, is the opposite trend - a renewed and increasing interest in 6-key and 8-key flutes. Nearly all modern makers make them now, and professional players are increasingly using them. It's rare that I meet a really good player at an ITM session who plays a keyless flute and who isn't talking about "upgrading some day" to a keyed flute. And nearly every well-known, professional Irish flute player today plays a 6-key or 8-key flute, which - correct me if I'm wrong - wasn't the case 20 or 30 years ago. And you have flute players like Larry Nugent pushing the boundaries of ITM and using the keys in innovative and interesting ways. I think this reflects what is happening to ITM more generally: it's evolving, and instruments are changing to keep up. I see no reason the same thing couldn't happen to the whistle, which seem to be the one ITM instrument that has lagged behind the others in its stubborn diatonicism.

[RoberTunes]

Regardless of merit and market demand level, it's going to be a while before a well-made chromatic at an acceptable medium-range price hits the market.

Just searched for "chromatic whistle", and wouldn't you know it, here's a low-priced fully chromatic that might have some buyers willing to try the idea. We'll see I guess. Looks iffy for quality of tone, but at least it's taking a try at it.
Oddly enough, only the "keys" of E and G to issue, no low or high D. A USA maker. Bracker made them out of aluminum in about all the keys and the Bracker site (still up) describes the whistles very well. So there are at this point very few suppliers.
Notice the flattened tone holes!

https://www.natco.co/khromophone/pictures.php

I can imagine one big draw of having Irish flutes with no keys is the great reduction in price! If you're just trying out the Irish flute, having been raised on the metal concert C flute as I was, then there are many keyless available that are high quality flutes for a quite reasonable price for trying out first. Myself, I developed the first stages of hearing impairment due probably to either flute playing and/or/with using headphones while recording. That's when I really took notice of the (perhaps) less shrill and appealing tone of the wooden Irish flutes vs the silver tubes. I'd already tried shakuhachi and some North American style First Nations flutes and loved the tone. If you're into ITM and have a talent for the flute, then a keyless 6-hole Irish could be made functional to some point. I'd be looking for that 7th, 8th and 9th hole soon enough though.

[Mr.Gumby]

I wasn't going to argue further with the 'true believers' but just for the record:

The 10-hole design Morneaux uses is the best scheme anyone has come up with, because it allows you to play with standard 6-hole fingerings while also allowing chromatic playing.

That is nonsense. Fully keyed whistles have been around for a century and more, they can be played as any whistle with the keys giving access to the full range of accidentals, like the flute. Some notes accessible by more than one key eg short and long fnat.

And I still think you grossly underestimate the half holing abilities of a lot of whistle players who won't feel the need for add ons..

Irish music is evolving, which will likely cause instruments to evolve as well. ITM players - especially fiddle players, who aren't limited to any diatonic scales - are increasingly playing things in odd keys or in ways that incorporate more chromaticism.

Again there is nothing new there, fiddle players (or concertina players, for that matter) have long been exploring different keys and colours/moods. And playing tunes, hornpipes for example, with a higher degree of chromatism.
But they have also been using different tunings to access a variety of colour rather than sticking to the standard tuning and playing all keys in that configuration with fluteplayers using fully keyed as well as unkeyed instruments in multiple keys. Most recently I was listening to a flute/fiddle duet using fiddles tuned a semitone up and one a full tone down complemented by flutes in Eb, Bb and F.

I see no reason the same thing couldn't happen to the whistle, which seem to be the one ITM instrument that has lagged behind the others in its stubborn diatonicism.

Ofcourse, between drones and regulators, the pipes are pretty much tied to a limited number of keys. (And yes, I have had a fully keyed chanter for four decades, so don't start on that). .

A USA maker. Bracker

Hans Bracker is a German living in Scotland.

[Kedster]

(And yes, I have had a fully keyed chanter for four decades, so don't start on that)

And I've been playing whistles for like, four months, so, I think I know what I'm talking about.. . .

[/s]

[Mr.Gumby]

And I've been playing whistles for like, four months, so, I think I know what I'm talking about.. . .

[/s]

Yes, there's often an element of that in this sort of discussions.

That, and the preaching of the newly converted.

[Cyberknight]

I wasn't going to argue further with the 'true believers' but just for the record:

The 10-hole design Morneaux uses is the best scheme anyone has come up with, because it allows you to play with standard 6-hole fingerings while also allowing chromatic playing.

That is nonsense. Fully keyed whistles have been around for a century and more, they can be played as any whistle with the keys giving access to the full range of accidentals, like the flute. Some notes accessible by more than one key eg short and long fnat.

Fully keyed whistles were always extremely rare. I'm not aware of more than 1 or 2 makers who ever tried to make them. But anyway, the 10-hole design is pretty clearly superior to having a keyed whistle, for a variety of reasons. It's much cheaper to make, because you don't have to make any keys; I've talked to whistle-makers who talk about what a pain it is to add keys to an instrument that small, and the 10-hole design avoids this problem. It also uses open holes rather than closed-hole keys, which allows for faster playing and sliding/ornamentation when playing accidentals. So no, there's nothing "nonsense" about it. In pretty much every conceivable way, 10-hole whistles are simply a better design than fully-keyed whistles.

And I still think you grossly underestimate the half holing abilities of a lot of whistle players who won't feel the need for add ons..

Sure, but most of them don't try to play in every ITM key available. Plenty of tunes exist, for example, in F major. I've never in my life seen a whistle player play in F major on a D whistle. Is it possible? Sure. But most whistle players (and owners of non-keyed flutes) simply sit out when one of those tunes come up. Same goes for E major, a common Scottish tune key.

And yes, pipe players usually sit out of these tunes too. But you can hardly blame them, because they play an instrument that is immensely difficult and complicated to begin with, for which there isn't a really good design that allows you to play in any key you want. There isn't any excuse like this for whistles. They're simple and easy enough that adding a small dash of extra complexity to allow them to access more scales isn't going to make the world end.

Regardless of merit and market demand level, it's going to be a while before a well-made chromatic at an acceptable medium-range price hits the market.

Just searched for "chromatic whistle", and wouldn't you know it, here's a low-priced fully chromatic that might have some buyers willing to try the idea. We'll see I guess. Looks iffy for quality of tone, but at least it's taking a try at it.
Oddly enough, only the "keys" of E and G to issue, no low or high D. A USA maker. Bracker made them out of aluminum in about all the keys and the Bracker site (still up) describes the whistles very well. So there are at this point very few suppliers.
Notice the flattened tone holes!

I'm a bit of a chromatic whistle enthusiast (if you couldn't tell), and I keep a list of every chromatic whistle I'm aware of. Yes, you're correct that most of them are extremely expensive. This doesn't have to be the case, though. There's no reason that adding 3 holes should make the instrument 5 times as expensive. The problem is just that most whistle-makers don't even try a chromatic design.

The Kromophone, by the way, is a pretty awful design for a chromatic whistle, at least if your target audience is ITM players. It doesn't allow you to play in ANY key using simple, traditional fingerings, and you have to constantly use both your pinkies regardless of which key you're in. Even the root key of the instrument can't be played using the simple 6-finger fingerings. As a result, woodwind players in general, and especially ITM players, would find its fingering system extremely counterintuitive. And while their price was excellent when they were actually sold, I'm pretty sure Kromophones aren't sold any more at all. Still, the Kromophone illustrates that chromatic whistles can be made affordable, if people actually bother to make them.

The cheapest chromatic whistles available today that have sensible fingering schemes (i.e., that don't require ITM-players to relearn everything from scratch) are Ukranian sopilkas. Sopilkas requires the left pinky to play G sharp, which some people might find annoying. Other than that, their scheme is exactly like the Morneaux Mark 1's finger system.

Here's an example of the cheapest one I've ever seen available on Ebay: https://www.ebay.com/itm/175565819680

iVolga makes whistles with this exact fingering system (but only in the key of C, unfortunately) and sells them for around $125. Still not cheap, but at least somewhat affordable.

[Mr.Gumby]

Well, seeing is believing. I suppose in time we'll hear you play tunes in every possible key and conquer the world.

[stringbed]

Fully keyed whistles were always extremely rare. I’m not aware of more than 1 or 2 makers who ever tried to make them.

If instruments such as the csakan (as seen here) and keyed English flageolet (here) and are permitted in this discussion, the value of that appraisal crumbles.

As long as we’re at it, the first 10-holed duct flute I ever played was an ocarina (acquired over 65 years ago ). The holes are intended to maximize the instrument’s diatonic range and were put there without a thought to the instrument’s chromatic potential.

[david_h]

... the whistle, which seem to be the one ITM instrument that has lagged behind the others in its stubborn diatonicism.

Unlike most of the others it's a transposing instrument. Compared to the others having several is affordable. As with much traditional music, the repertoire almost entirely diatonic, frequently not even using the full scale. Tunes that are not in the three finger note or six finger note based diatonic scales usually run out of range.

For me those are enough to explain a limited interest in a chromatic version.

Though I do have a D+ but not for Irish tunes.

[crossed two posts]

[Tunborough]

I've never in my life seen a whistle player play in F major on a D whistle. Is it possible? Sure. But most whistle players (and owners of non-keyed flutes) simply sit out when one of those tunes come up.

Or they pick up a C or F whistle from their roll, and carry merrily along, because ...

Unlike most of the other [instruments] it's a transposing instrument. Compared to the others, having several is affordable.

You have twice insisted that you need your D whistle chromatic so you can play in F major, but complained that chromatic sopilkas don't come in D, even though presumably you can play in D major on a chromatic sopilka tuned in C.

iVolga makes whistles with this exact fingering system (but only in the key of C, unfortunately) and sells them for around $125. Still not cheap, but at least somewhat affordable.

[Cyberknight]

Fully keyed whistles were always extremely rare. I’m not aware of more than 1 or 2 makers who ever tried to make them.

If instruments such as the csakan (as seen here) and keyed English flageolet (here) and are permitted in this discussion, the value of that appraisal crumbles.

As long as we’re at it, the first 10-holed duct flute I ever played was an ocarina (acquired over 65 years ago ). The holes are intended to maximize the instrument’s diatonic range and were put there without a thought to the instrument’s chromatic potential.

No, it really doesn't. English flageolets aren't the same as whistles and don't sound that much like whistles; historically, they were also unnecessarily expensive compared to whistles due to their wooden construction (which is likely why whistles overtook/replaced them in ITM). Csakans also don't sound like whistles, aren't typically made in D, and require half-holing to play chromatically. Ocarinas are completely different instruments and have never been popular in ITM.

My point was that very, very few makers have constructed actual tin whistles - the preferred instrument for ITM - with keys. These have always been an extreme rarity. So the argument that "there were always whistles with keys, and those never caught on" doesn't really convince me. Tin whistles with keys MIGHT have caught on, if more whistle-makers had constructed them and they'd been more affordable.

Plus, as I previously pointed out, 10-hole whistles are superior to fully keyed whistles in numerous ways.

I've never in my life seen a whistle player play in F major on a D whistle. Is it possible? Sure. But most whistle players (and owners of non-keyed flutes) simply sit out when one of those tunes come up.

Or they pick up a C or F whistle from their roll, and carry merrily along, because ...

Unlike most of the other [instruments] it's a transposing instrument. Compared to the others, having several is affordable.

You have twice insisted that you need your D whistle chromatic so you can play in F major, but complained that chromatic sopilkas don't come in D, even though presumably you can play in D major on a chromatic sopilka tuned in C.

iVolga makes whistles with this exact fingering system (but only in the key of C, unfortunately) and sells them for around $125. Still not cheap, but at least somewhat affordable.

First of all, I've already talked extensively about the merits of having a single instrument that can play in multiple keys, rather than multiple instruments (this allows you to focus on perfecting your technique on one single instrument, it's better for quickly switching keys, etc.). Second, "pulling out a different whistle" might work for F major, but not for other keys that fiddles sometimes play in, like E major or B major, for example. Good luck finding an affordable E whistle. Third, many fiddle tunes change back in forth between keys or modes mid-song. You're greatly advantaged by having a chromatic whistle if you're attempting to play one of these tunes.

As for my complaining about sopilkas, I would think this would be self-explanatory. I want an instrument that plays chromatically, but not one that requires me to relearn every single tune that I know from scratch. A chromatic sopilka/whistle in C is not a good solution for obvious reasons. It CAN play in D, but I'd have to relearn every single tune to play in D. No thanks. I'd rather have a chromatic whistle in D (which, thankfully, I have). Pretty sure everyone who currently plays D whistle for ITM would agree with this sentiment.