How many high whistles is too many?

[ubizmo]

I have started playing in open sessions again, after a long hiatus due to pandemic and personal inertia. I bring a high D and a low D whistle. Most of the time there are two other whistle players there, often three. They're almost always playing high D whistles. Occasionally one of them will whip out a low D for one tune, maybe a waltz or something.

Anyway, to my ear, anything over two high D whistles is just too much. It's overpowering and unpleasant. Consequently, I end up playing my low whistle almost exclusively. I think it balances the sound without adding to the assault on the ears.

I'm just wondering if any of you fine people find yourselves in a similar situation. It's not a problem, since I enjoy playing the low whistle anyway. I'm just curious to know what your experience of this is.

[Mr.Gumby]

It all depends on the circumstances, who is playing, what whistles are being played, size of the space noise, what other instruments are presen etc etc.

FWIW, I have seen all sorts of gatherings of whistlers playing together, from two to over half a dozen, not a bother. At a tribute to Mary Bergin this summer well over twenty players were playing at some point and it was great. Mind you, I have seen instances where two were too many. Use your ears/common sense.

[Cyberknight]

I play high D whistle (Susato), and in my opinion, even one can be too many in a smaller session sometimes. I have to pull out my quieter whistles every now and then. And if someone else is playing whistle, I'll almost always play flute (which is what I'm trying to transition to).

It's not just the piercing volume of the higher notes that makes too many whistles a problem. It's also the fact that because you're playing an octave higher, your part stands out above the crowd, so any slight variations in melody or ornamentation between the two players are going to stick out like a sore thumb. And it also doesn't help that whistles are not particularly in-tune instruments, comparatively speaking, so it's not uncommon for two whistles to be a quartertone or more apart in pitch on any given note.

Of course, if you have ENOUGH whistles, I suppose the pitch problems go away, because (like a large choir) the pitch differences all blend together and average out, and it sounds more in-tune.

[Moof]

It's not just the piercing volume of the higher notes that makes too many whistles a problem. It's also the fact that because you're playing an octave higher, your part stands out above the crowd, so any slight variations in melody or ornamentation between the two players are going to stick out like a sore thumb.

Yes, I've started playing with someone else who's at a similar stage of learning whistle. Along with a concertina player who's about a year and a half in, we join a small group of experienced folk who slow down for us in the first half hour of their session. It took us whistlers about 12 bars to realise we definitely need to use the same versions of tunes. Luckily we're working on picking up some of the group's repertoire, so we co-ordinate before we start on a new tune. Using the same version and limiting ornaments to only what's needed for articulation made a big difference.

Obviously part of it's down to our skill level, but it would probably help if experienced players did a bit of it too.

[ecadre]

As with many things, it all depends. I'll tune my whistles at a session, some people don't, or are not able to.

Recently at our session we've been getting up to four whistle players (whistle only) and myself who alternates with melodeon. None of us are playing loud whistles and they don't clash all that often, though when there is an issue I'll drop down to the lower octave for some sections, or switch onto melodeon.

Last Monday we had a full complement of whistlers (four plus me), and I don't remember any problems. Admittedly there are a number of tunes where there were only one or two people playing, but there were four or five whistles going on some session favourites. The mix of other instruments was fiddles, melodeon, concertina, mandolin, harp.

Incidentally, a couple of weeks ago we had an unusually large session, sixteen players and a large audience. This is pretty unusual for us and the whole event was much louder than usual; the audience also got quite chatty.

Anyway, one of our experienced whistle players was sitting opposite me across the circle playing a Clarke Sweetone, and the interesting thing was that I could clearly hear him playing. That is hear him playing with the session going full pelt and a chatty audience.

PS. I thought I'd add the whistles played by different people.

Clarke Sweetone/Clarke Original/Dave Shaw.
O'Briain "Improved"/Generation. << that's me
Walton (standard D).
Walton (standard D).
Clarke Sweetone.

[pancelticpiper]

If they're playing in tune it doesn't matter how many there are.

Everybody in a New England fife & drum band is playing the same-size high-pitched fifes and the good bands sound great because everybody is playing in tune.

But two is too many if they're not in tune with each other.

Wasn't it Vivaldi who said

The only thing worse than a flute, is two.

[bigsciota]

Yes, I'd say tuning is the major issue with multiple whistles. The old saw about piccolo players works well for whistles:

Q: How do you get two piccolo players to play in tune?

A: Shoot one of them!

I've been at sessions with multiple whistles and they're all in tune, sounding good, and it's like flutes or fiddles or accordions or anything else. But whistles, or more accurately whistle-players, seem to have some issues with getting in tune. One issue is that being an octave higher, I think some people have problems getting it right when tuning to someone else. Another is the plague of the tuner, or now more often the tuning app, that people blindly obey rather than developing an ear.

I've said it elsewhere, but I think that tunable whistles can be fool's gold for a lot of players. Too many treat it like a "set it and forget it," or will constantly adjust the head up and down throughout the session looking for perfection. Actual tuning in whistles is a function of air pressure, temperature, and other factors that you have to learn to manage. I've seen too many players take out a whistle, "tune it," then play wildly sharp for the rest of the night because their whistle warmed up after they adjusted it. Or people who over-push the first octave D or A when tuning to hear themselves, making their second octave consistently flat for the night.

[Cyberknight]

Yes, I'd say tuning is the major issue with multiple whistles. The old saw about piccolo players works well for whistles:

Q: How do you get two piccolo players to play in tune?

A: Shoot one of them!

I've been at sessions with multiple whistles and they're all in tune, sounding good, and it's like flutes or fiddles or accordions or anything else. But whistles, or more accurately whistle-players, seem to have some issues with getting in tune. One issue is that being an octave higher, I think some people have problems getting it right when tuning to someone else. Another is the plague of the tuner, or now more often the tuning app, that people blindly obey rather than developing an ear.

I've said it elsewhere, but I think that tunable whistles can be fool's gold for a lot of players. Too many treat it like a "set it and forget it," or will constantly adjust the head up and down throughout the session looking for perfection. Actual tuning in whistles is a function of air pressure, temperature, and other factors that you have to learn to manage. I've seen too many players take out a whistle, "tune it," then play wildly sharp for the rest of the night because their whistle warmed up after they adjusted it. Or people who over-push the first octave D or A when tuning to hear themselves, making their second octave consistently flat for the night.

Agreed. But part of the problem is also the instrument itself. Unfortunately, it's just very hard to get it in tune unless you have an extremely well-made whistle. The lack of embouchure control makes it harder to play in tune than many other instruments. Getting one octave in tune tends to make the other octave out of tune. But different whistles also tend to be out of tune in different ways. I have tapered whistles that are too sharp in the second octave and cylindrical ones that are too sharp in the first octave.

[ubizmo]

Agreed. But part of the problem is also the instrument itself. Unfortunately, it's just very hard to get it in tune unless you have an extremely well-made whistle. The lack of embouchure control makes it harder to play in tune than many other instruments. Getting one octave in tune tends to make the other octave out of tune. But different whistles also tend to be out of tune in different ways. I have tapered whistles that are too sharp in the second octave and cylindrical ones that are too sharp in the first octave.

I agree with this. Even well-made whistles from different makers are unlikely to be in tune with each other throughout their range. Whistle makers have to make decisions about how to make the best of the inherent challenges of whistle tuning. So there's that.

The point about people playing slightly different variants of a tune, or even different ornamentation, is also a good one. The net effect can be a muddy sound--and the same thing happens when there are multiple fiddles. A session isn't a band; there are no rehearsals, etc.

The points that have been made are good ones. I suspect it also matters whether the session occurs in a fairly open or a confined space. In a confined space, the high whistles seem to be magnified. At the end of the day, maybe it's just mostly my own preferences at work. The sound of a three or four high whistles, even in tune, is excessive, for my tastes. So reverting to low whistle is my solution.

I should add that, in conversation with other whistle players at the few sessions that I'm familiar with, more than one has said that they only like to play the low whistle on slower tunes. They don't feel comfortable playing fast on it. I'm no virtuoso, but my speed limit is about the same, whether I'm playing low or high whistle, so that's not a deciding factor for me.

[bigsciota]

Plenty of players play in tune just fine on a wide variety of whistles of different makes. As I mentioned before, there are compromises inherent in the instrument that are due to physics, so you're never going to get a "perfect" whistle intonation-wise. But again, plenty of people are able to play in tune despite those issues. It's a question of skill and practice.

[Cyberknight]

Plenty of players play in tune just fine on a wide variety of whistles of different makes. As I mentioned before, there are compromises inherent in the instrument that are due to physics, so you're never going to get a "perfect" whistle intonation-wise. But again, plenty of people are able to play in tune despite those issues. It's a question of skill and practice.

I never really said anything to the contrary. My point was just that it can be impossible on some whistles. Many whistles simply don't have good tuning (even expensive ones). The whistle isn't a flute - there's only so much you can do to control the pitch with your embouchure.

And even whistles with good tuning have slight pitch issues, as you yourself acknowledge. None of them are perfect, and different whistles are out of pitch in different ways, so it can create issues when they play together.

[Mr.Gumby]

Can't help thinking of a record attempt they did in Enjis ten years ago
FWIW, I didn't go on the day.

[ubizmo]

Plenty of players play in tune just fine on a wide variety of whistles of different makes. As I mentioned before, there are compromises inherent in the instrument that are due to physics, so you're never going to get a "perfect" whistle intonation-wise. But again, plenty of people are able to play in tune despite those issues. It's a question of skill and practice.

No doubt about it. And in a typical open session there will be quite a range of skill and practice levels of the mostly amateur musicians.

For myself, I'm still at the level where maybe 90% of my practice time is used for learning tunes, since I still find that I sit out more than I play. I do spend a bit of time doing long notes and octave jumps, when I start a practice session, and that helps. But I could certainly do more to make my own intonation better.

Incidentally, the low whistle that I resort to is a Kerry Optima (plastic mouthpiece), and I find its intonation to be very good. I was surprised to read the complaints about its intonation here when it was on a whistle tour a few years back.