Tweaking a whistle with a dirty/harsh sound

[Nanohedron]

At what point does this discussion cross into the territory of libel? Just asking for a friend.

When someone starts deliberately trying to defame or malign a company, rather than idly pondering how the whistle-making industry works in the modern world?

Libel laws are different in different countries; this being a US site, US law applies. If someone has cheated you, you are free to broadcast that info so long as you're being entirely truthful. A big topic oft revisited at C&F is the provenance of instruments, and that is fair game so far as it goes; after all, musicians want to make informed choices, and that is entirely fair. If the actual, original maker has earned an unpopular reputation due to consistent poor quality or to its business practices, the source can object, but this isn't libel in US law. One's reputation is not sacrosanct if one's practices are demonstrably objectionable. Whistles made of components from elsewhere than home base earns a "Meh". If you have ethical concerns about sourcing from a different country because of its politics, that's something you have to work out for yourself.

[Terry McGee]

Ah, the quote "Made in Ireland by Paraic McNeela" is from Powell's Music Shop in Ireland:

https://powellsmusic.ie/whistles-1/wild ... -d-whistle

I'd gone looking for a better image of the Wild whistle. The heads on the Wild and Mullan whistles look "more shiny and rounded" than the Killarney head. On the Killarney, for example, you can easily see where the ramp was serially milled. The Zoom microscope clearly shows 7 facets, the outer pair being a bit over twice as wide as the inner five. But on this image the ramp is highly polished. The edges are also taken off the Delrin mouthpiece cover. A lot of abrasives died for this image!

[stringbed]

The heads on the Wild and Mullan whistles look “more shiny and rounded” than the Killarney head. On the Killarney, for example, you can easily see where the ramp was serially milled. The Zoom microscope clearly shows 7 facets, the outer pair being a bit over twice as wide as the inner five. But on this image the ramp is highly polished. The edges are also taken off the Delrin mouthpiece cover. A lot of abrasives died for this image!

Here are the Killarney, Sindt, and Wild A’s.



These are the Killarney, Sindt, and Mullan D’s



I have a Wild D but it’s currently out on loan. If it were in the D comparison, it would contrast the same way it does in the A. I believe that Mullan and Wild are the same OEM (with Glenluce and Lir) and that the way the ramp is worked is a VAR option. The pic that Terry located shows the higher finish also on the three Mullans I’ve seen, including the one above. The Wild A in my pic shows how both it and my Wild D are worked. The metal shaving that was still attached to the edge on the A when I received it, and the irregular surface of the ramp seen in the photo, indicate some type of planing (or manual gouging), rather than rotary milling.

[Terry McGee]

So, interesting that we seem to be seeing pretty definite indications of OEM approaches in both moulded plastic head whistles and these machined head whistles.

Interesting that Sindt heads are a bit longer after the window. More tuning slide overlap?

Looks like the OEM doesn't supply the fixing pins - Killarney's bulge and the others are flush. And I would have thought the OEM would have been responsible for milling the ramp, but the Wild ramp does look rather roughly cut.

On that topic, I had a visit from a lady from Melbourne last week looking for a new flute. She showed me her McNeela Prattens. I played it and thought, hmmm, 60% of what a Prattens should yield. I looked in the embouchure hole and was shocked. It was hacked, not voiced.

[stringbed]

Looks like the OEM doesn’t supply the fixing pins - Killarney’s bulge and the others are flush. And I would have thought the OEM would have been responsible for milling the ramp, but the Wild ramp does look rather roughly cut.

I would have thought such things as “flush or protruding fixing pins” and “milled or hand cut ramp” to be good examples of OEM options. Again, though, I don’t reckon that the Sindt clones are all made at the same facility, nor does any of this indicate that Mr. Sindt is himself farming out parts of his production.

[Terry McGee]

I would have thought such things as “flush or protruding fixing pins” and “milled or hand cut ramp” to be good examples of OEM options.

Yeah, fair point. I'm clearly not used to thinking along those lines!

Again, though, I don’t reckon that the Sindt clones are all made at the same facility, nor does any of this indicate that Mr. Sindt is himself farming out parts of his production.

No, I wouldn't expect so either. I've made a few whistle heads along those lines and all you need is a lathe to bore out and turn the three major parts, and a mill to cut the slot. Could even be done on a lathe with a milling attachment, or if necessary, a drill press and hand tools. It would be a process that repaid a "mass production" approach. I was making them one head at a time, and it seemed that most of the time was spent setting up for the next cut, and very little time making it! If you were making a box full, you could really turn them out.

[Mr.Gumby]

FWIW, there are more and more sellers/makers hopping on this particular bandwagon all the time. It's hard to keep up with and frankly I am not sure I want to.

Anyway:

Sióg whistles anyone? A container load of them must have landed, they've come into in all sorts of music shops recently.

[Moof]

I hadn't spotted those. They appear to have the same curved ramp base and polished finish of the Mullan whistle, except they retail for more than twice as much. Obviously I don't know whether it is pretty much the same model, but if it is I'd want more than nice green lacquer for the extra £50.

[Mr.Gumby]

they retail for more than twice as much.

The thing is, ofcourse, that is not quite the whole story. When the Mullans were on ebay first, I looked at them and considered if they were a worth a go. Between the postage, Brexit tax and ebay charges they would come in just over 100 euro. At that point I lost interest.
I can get a Sióg in various shops if I wanted to get one (I don't, in all fairness) and spend as much as I would to get a Mullan delivered. The Mullans are only cheap when you are in the UK.
These seem to be priced to align with the Wild, Lir, Killarney etc. so they potentially appeal to a whole market of people, tourists (they are green, the fairies made them!), who walk into a music shop with buying a whistle in mind.

[bigsciota]

The thing is, ofcourse, that is not quite the whole story. When the Mullans were on ebay first, I looked at them and considered if they were a worth a go. Between the postage, Brexit tax and ebay charges they would come in just over 100 euro. At that point I lost interest.
I can get a Sióg in various shops if I wanted to get one (I don't, in all fairness) and spend as much as I would to get a Mullan delivered. The Mullans are only cheap when you are in the UK.
These seem to be priced to align with the Wild, Lir, Killarney etc. so they potentially appeal to a whole market of people, tourists (they are green, the fairies made them!), who walk into a music shop with buying a whistle in mind.

The Mullans come in a decent bit cheaper even with shipping for those of us in the States, but it is interesting to me that pretty much all the other brands are lock-step in pricing. When the Killarney came out, it was an obvious clone of John Sindt's design, but cheaper and easier to get your hands on (no waitlist, online ordering, quick international shipping, etc.). Since Sindt was so well-regarded, it made sense that the less-expensive, more-convenient alternative would be so popular. Especially at a time when Sindts were going for astronomical prices on the secondhand market!

I would have thought there'd be more competition on price, maybe more experimentation with bore width or other features, etc. Instead, the main difference in so many of these designs seems to be the color! Maybe that and some of the marketing/branding is enough. And you're right, they may not be selling to whistle "connoisseurs" necessarily, and hoping that they'll appeal as a tourist souvenir. I just don't get how all these whistle brands expect to differentiate themselves!

I will say that I have seen a sharp uptick in McNeela-branded merchandise at sessions here in the States over the past few years, including the "Wild Irish" whistle. Whatever he's doing marketing-wise must be working!

[Mr.Gumby]

The Mullans come in a decent bit cheaper even with shipping for those of us in the States,

In all fairness I looked at ebay prices at the time and between the taxes, shipping and other costs they charged it wasn't worth it. Buying them from the Mullan online shop may work our a bit cheaper. My son offered to collect one for me in Enniskillen as he was passing through there regularly at the time but I let that go as we couldn't locate a shop to visit. I really didn't (and don't) need another whistle anyway so I wasn't realy invested in the whole thing to begin with.
I look at all these whistles where I find them for sale but don't find myself tempted.

I just don't get how all these whistle brands expect to differentiate themselves!

There is a whole crowd only interested in flogging stuff, whatever sells.

[Moof]

Whatever he's doing marketing-wise must be working!

If you're shopping online from the UK, McNeela's is plastered all over every Google search. I've no issue with their instruments, but it sometimes gets a tad wearisome when you've searched for a brand name in inverted commas, they don't even stock it, but they're still every other text result and all the photos.

If I could give the Mullan a try before buying, I'd look at their Bb. They're £43 to UK buyers, postage included, and if it's a decent player that's a good deal. I know in theory I could return it if it turned out not to be very good, but if wasn't unplayable either I wouldn't trust myself to get round to it.

Ah well, I suppose at least I'd get more of an idea whether the mid-range whistles suffer from the same syndrome as the cheapies: a good example can be a nice whistle, but a bad one might be a shocker.

[Terry McGee]

Yeah, ditto here too, Moof. We have moved suddenly into the Peak Marketing era.

Oh and Peak Weird. Check out the "ETbotu Irish Whistle Flute D Key Ireland Flute 6 Hole Musical Instrument" on Amazon:



https://www.amazon.com.au/ETbotu-Whistl ... B07K3XC3NY

Etbotu. That's somewhere in East Clare, isn't it?

And whistles with that popular Irish girl's name, Naomi. Now with "Integrated Blowing Nozzle"...



It does come with a little caveat:



I think I need a little lie down....

[stringbed]

If I could give the Mullan a try before buying, I’d look at their Bb. I know in theory I could return it if it turned out not to be very good, but if wasn’t unplayable either I wouldn’t trust myself to get round to it. I suppose at least I’d get more of an idea whether the mid-range whistles suffer from the same syndrome as the cheapies: a good example can be a nice whistle, but a bad one might be a shocker.

Unless my experience is unique, your fear is justified. I have a fistful of whistles made by what it seems we can now safely take to be the same OEM in Pakistan. One arrived with an absolutely useless voicing via McNeela. I was floored that he let it ship (or that it even got out of the factory) but didn’t request post-sale support since I could easily correct the problem myself.

I have a pair of D’s labeled Mullan, with brass and nickel bodies, acquired via eBay and directly. The eBay one is voiced quite nicely but the other is your feared shocker. Here again, I didn’t contact Mullan since I wasn’t going to be using the two whistles at the same time and it was easy enough to put the good headjoint on either body. With some misgivings due both to this and an inordinately long delivery time (immediate availability was incorrectly indicated on their website), I ordered another whistle from Mullan. This time I opted for traceable shipment and was told that the tracking number would be provided as soon as the order had been dispatched. I never received either that number or: a response to a request for it; a response to a request for them to have the postal service track what by then was a clearly overdue shipment; the whistle; a refund; a replacement. That leaves me not just with the negative experience of one Mullan whistle, but with the loss of the purchase price of another.

I’ll note once again that the Killarney whistles do not appear to originate with the same OEM. I also find them to be the closest of the lot to the original Sindt whistles in terms of design and consistency. They do differ audibly from them but not in any detrimental regard. I’ve placed several orders directly with Killarney and never had reason for follow-up communication.

Disclaimer: I have no involvement whatsoever with any of the business entities named here other than as a more or less satisfied customer.

[Mr.Gumby]

I’ll note once again that the Killarneys do not appear to originate with the same OEM.

I must say, when they introduced laser engraved heads much like the other makes, I wondered if they were farming out some of the parts.
But initially it was the clip of one of the Buckleys playing Skylark that convinced me to buy one of their whistles untried. While the first two whistles I received from them were fairly rough, to the point where I would have left them had I found them I a shop in that state, they are lovely players. I think the difference you see is between players making/selling instruments and others that are merely dealers selling stuff they buy in from who knows where.