Louder whistle with tapered bore?

[Tommy]

Tommy makes a conical tapered soprano with 14 mm bore tapering down to a 11 mm end.
viewtopic.php?p=905874#p905874

[Tunborough]

I would speculate that the cross-sectional area of the windway, and width in particular, might have more impact on overall volume than the cross-section of the tube. That said, a wider bore can accommodate a wider windway.

[Cyberknight]

Tommy makes a conical tapered soprano with 14 mm bore tapering down to a 11 mm end.
viewtopic.php?p=905874#p905874

Interesting. You make these? Is there a website for them or any video of someone playing one?

[DanteM]

A constant problem I run into trying to play my Susato Kildare with other people is the inconsistent pitch/volume between the octaves. The second octave is naturally much louder than the first octave (which is true of all whistles, I suppose). I try to underblow the second octave to reduce the volume, but then it just sounds flat. If I tune the instrument up, I can get the second octave to be in tune and not overpowering. But then the bottom octave is either too sharp (if I overblow a bit) or too quiet (if I blow normally). I basically have to pick my poison: I can play with super inconsistent volume between the two octaves, or super inconsistent pitch between the two octaves. My Susato Oriole (which is completely cylindrical) has the same problem, only worse.

I'm starting to realize I that really like medium to heavy tapered whistles (like my Morneaux). They seem to resolve this annoying octave inconsistency problem. They allow you to overblow a bit on the lower octave and underblow a bit on the second octave, and the instrument will be in tune and have very consistent volume.

The problem is that every tapered bore whistle I have is rather quiet and doesn't really work for larger sessions. Morneaux sort of works, but even it is a bit quiet, and I can't really hear myself play if there's 10+ people.

Does anyone know of a loud whistle that works for sessions that has a mildly (or even heavily) tapered bore?

I've heard a lot about Kerrywhistle Buskers and Colin Goldie whistles, but I'm pretty sure both of those have cylindrical bores. I'm sure they're loud and all, but since they don't have any taper, I imagine they have this same problem of octave volume/pitch inconsistency.

I think I can help with this too.

I thought about this question for a long time. How to make lower notes louder without sacrificing the second octave.

The cone, yes, partially solves this problem. It makes D-E notes i bit louder due to high harmonics. But there is a better solution. More precisely, two solutions. One of them does not require anything from the musician. Other - adds another level of control. Like a recorder, an octave valve compared to a whistle. If you write me on X, I may connect you with musicians who plays on my whistles (the first solution).

The second solution - is an experimental, I'm still working on it. This solution allows you to make the second octave twice as quiet as the first.

[Cyberknight]

A constant problem I run into trying to play my Susato Kildare with other people is the inconsistent pitch/volume between the octaves. The second octave is naturally much louder than the first octave (which is true of all whistles, I suppose). I try to underblow the second octave to reduce the volume, but then it just sounds flat. If I tune the instrument up, I can get the second octave to be in tune and not overpowering. But then the bottom octave is either too sharp (if I overblow a bit) or too quiet (if I blow normally). I basically have to pick my poison: I can play with super inconsistent volume between the two octaves, or super inconsistent pitch between the two octaves. My Susato Oriole (which is completely cylindrical) has the same problem, only worse.

I'm starting to realize I that really like medium to heavy tapered whistles (like my Morneaux). They seem to resolve this annoying octave inconsistency problem. They allow you to overblow a bit on the lower octave and underblow a bit on the second octave, and the instrument will be in tune and have very consistent volume.

The problem is that every tapered bore whistle I have is rather quiet and doesn't really work for larger sessions. Morneaux sort of works, but even it is a bit quiet, and I can't really hear myself play if there's 10+ people.

Does anyone know of a loud whistle that works for sessions that has a mildly (or even heavily) tapered bore?

I've heard a lot about Kerrywhistle Buskers and Colin Goldie whistles, but I'm pretty sure both of those have cylindrical bores. I'm sure they're loud and all, but since they don't have any taper, I imagine they have this same problem of octave volume/pitch inconsistency.

I think I can help with this too.

I thought about this question for a long time. How to make lower notes louder without sacrificing the second octave.

The cone, yes, partially solves this problem. It makes D-E notes i bit louder due to high harmonics. But there is a better solution. More precisely, two solutions. One of them does not require anything from the musician. Other - adds another level of control. Like a recorder, an octave valve compared to a whistle. If you write me on X, I may connect you with musicians who plays on my whistles (the first solution).

The second solution - is an experimental, I'm still working on it. This solution allows you to make the second octave twice as quiet as the first.

Thanks for your insights!

I have a few thoughts I've developed on this topic since I wrote that post back in August.

First, I'm now a HUGE fan of whistles that have a small taper in the head, rather than a completely tapered bore. I find that this completely solves the octave spread issue without sacrificing any volume in the first octave. My current Colin Goldie whistle is pretty much perfect in this regard - when played perfectly in-tune, the first octave is stronger than my Susatos, and the second octave is quieter. Of course, the second octave is still louder than the first. But the volume difference (while playing in tune) is substantially less than on any of my other whistles.

Second, I'd of course still love more volume control over both octaves, if that were possible. Venting holes, like on a recorder, are an interesting idea. But another idea I had (I have no idea if this would work, but I'm just throwing it out there) is to have a spring-loaded windway that can change in size as you tighten your lips. It could narrow just a tiny bit - a few millimeters, say - which would (I think?) allow you to play notes slightly quieter without going flat.

I know the idea of a lip-activated key isn't new, but I'm not aware of a whistle/recorder type instrument that has a windway that actually gets smaller when you press it with your lips. I'm very curious if this - or something similar - would be effective.

And I'm looking forward to seeing your innovative solution as well!

[DanteM]

...without sacrificing any volume in the first octave.

Whistles have the second octave that are 2-3 times louder than first. If you think I’m wrong, take a microphone and an oscilloscope - you’ll see for yourself. Or record on a recorder with compression turned off and publish the recording here

First, I'm now a HUGE fan of whistles that have a small taper in the head

Already done - in my whistles. I achieved fine tuning of both octaves and loud lower notes.

But! The tapered channel has many advantages! I have a line of conical bore (small cone) whistles too.
https://twitter.com/dante_music86/statu ... 5555136618

..a spring-loaded windway that can change in size as you tighten your lips.

What did you mean?
1 Changing windway height?
2 Changing windway width?
3 Changing window size?

I did option 2 and 3 - and I called this - Silent whistle. I can play it at night!

I really liked this decision and will repeat it (just for fun):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd8qT8MppsY

[Cyberknight]

...without sacrificing any volume in the first octave.

Whistles have the second octave that are 2-3 times louder than first. If you think I’m wrong, take a microphone and an oscilloscope - you’ll see for yourself. Or record on a recorder with compression turned off and publish the recording here

I've done this using my phone/computer and a decibel meter app, and the results I get often don't make any sense and vary wildly depending on what microphone I use. I guess I need better microphone or something.

To clarify, I'm not expecting to play a whistle with equal volume between octaves, which I know is physically impossible (without some gimmicky change to the way the whistle operates). I just want a whistle where the volume disparity isn't completely unmanageable. And I've played whistles where the second octave seems to be 5x or 6x as loud as the first (when you play the thing in tune). I'm glad Goldie whistles avoid this issue.

What did you mean?
1 Changing windway height?
2 Changing windway width?
3 Changing window size?

The idea i had was that it would change the windway height, just slightly. You'd be able to change it while playing with your lips. What affect would this have on volume/intonation?

[Cyberknight]

Update: I tested this again, but I turned off all audio enhancements I could find in Windows 11 settings, and I used my highest quality microphone. What I found is that on my Goldie whistle, the second octave can be played in tune with some notes being significantly LESS than twice the volume of the first octave; but with other notes, the disparity is greater.

Second-octave G and F# can both be played only 1.5 decibels louder than second-octave G (yes, you read that right!). Both could be blown in tune roughly 1.4x louder in their second octaves.

Second-octave D and E can be played in tune about 2 or 3 decibels louder than their first-octave counterparts. Both could be blown in tune roughly 1.5x-1.8x louder in their second octaves, depending on how warmed up I was (Goldie low notes get louder as you warm up).

The biggest disparities were in high A and high B. High A was 5 decibels louder, and 2.5x louder, in its second octave. B was 7 decibels louder, and a whopping 5x louder, in its second octave. (I always knew there was a reason I instinctually tend to jump down the octave when I play that high ).

Of course, this is not a very scientific experiment. Decibel measurement can vary depending on how close you are to the microphone. Also, playing as loud as possible in the first octave and as quietly as possible in the second (while staying roughly in tune) are doable for a test like this, but not really feasible during real-world playing.

Still, I found it interesting that the range of the whistle most commonly used for Irish music (D to high A) can be played less than twice as loud in the second octave than the first, with the only exception being high A, which was 2.5 times louder. I imagine it's very difficult to make loud, large-bore whistles with volume this relatively consistent. I tried several other whistles, and none of them were this consistent (Mazur seemed like the closest). I guess that taper in the head, combined with a lot of undercutting, is what accounts for the consistency.

I should also add that this Goldie is the second of two that I've owned, and the first one I had was even more consistent in volume (if I recall correctly) than this one is. Its second octave was actually so quiet that it bothered me. It almost felt like I could get more volume out of lower-octave notes than higher-octave notes (I know this wasn't actually the case, but that's what it felt like to play it).

[DanteM]

The idea i had was that it would change the windway height, just slightly. You'd be able to change it while playing with your lips. What affect would this have on volume/intonation?

I can't say without experimenting. Too many variables. it's change the timbre 100%. Playing will be more difficult for the musician.