From flageolet to tin whistle

[stringbed]

I’m starting this thread with the intention of providing a clearly labeled venue for a discussion that has been gathering momentum for a while under the heading Mad Max's Generation. The following quote is of a recent exchange in that sequence. I realize that the attempt to migrate the further discussion from there to here may be in vain but it seems at least worth a try.

I’ll gladly start a new discussion headed, say, From flageolet to tin whistle, if others see some utility in bringing the topic out from under its current Mad Max cloak.

I'd vote for that, stringbed, and I imagine Mad Max will be glad to see us go too. And we're seeing too much interesting material to give up now!

Questions I want answers to, but you may disdain to address, include:
Why is it La Flûte, but Le Flageolet?
Are Flageolet beans called that because you can slip them into your tin whistle and blow them to hit the tenor banjo player behind the ear, while you appear to carry on playing normally?
Does anyone use the name flageolet today? Or have the French whistle players descended to Le Whistle?

In keeping with this intention, I’m seeding the new location with responses to some of Terry’s questions and will be doing the same with a pending response to another.

The initial French word for flageolet was arigot which, just as flageolet also designates a bean. The apparent connection derives from the long slender shape, just as “string bean” is used in (at least in American) English to designate a tall slender person.

I believe that French whistlers refer to their instruments with the loanword “tin whistles.” Notwithstanding, Clarke and Generation continue to market their whistles as flageolets, which suggests that they feel doing so to be a successful approach. They serve a large neophyte clientele, further suggesting that the instrument names are more broadly regarded as interchangeable than the denizens of C&F might otherwise expect.

[stringbed]

Continuing the attempt to migrate the consideration of the 19th-century development of the tin whistle to an explicitly labeled discussion:

Arrrggghhhh! Where did this "fife" name come from in the whistle context?

Terry is reacting to this photograph of a tin whistle in another comment.

On the issue of naming, some of the old French whistles had a visual link to the shape of flageolets…while elsewhere:

Charles Burney mentions a “fife à bec” in an article on the fife that he wrote for an encyclopedia published in 1819. If this is taken as a parallel to the flûte à bec — a recorder — there may be some surprise here but no mystery.

[Mr.Gumby]

Isn't the bean a haricot, vert or otherwise?

On French recordings I have always seen flûte Irlandaise used, usage may have changed in recent years. German/Dutch use similar constructions, apparently lacking a proper name for the instrument, although I have seen Blechflöte at times too.


[Crossposted]

Also note the use of names in catalogue page posted earlier:

[Terry McGee]

Oooh, “fife à bec” - a "keyless flute with a beak". Plausible, stringbed.

Hmmm, now I have Alouette going around in my head...

Je te plumerai le bec. ×2
Et le bec! ×2
Et la tête! ×2
Alouette! ×2
A-a-a-ah....

Alouette, gentille alouette,
Alouette, je te plumerai.

[Terry McGee]

Now do we know when the first use of the term "whistle" for our instrument arises? I'm assuming it's a name inspired by the kind of whistles used for signalling, eg by the constabulary? Note this rather historical example, the 22nd whistle made for the Met. Note it has two windows. I was asking about that idea recently....



Now, nuthin' to see here, Ladies and Gentlemen. 'Aven't you all got 'omes to go to?

[stringbed]

Responding without differentiation to the preceding comments:

Burney also stated explicitly that the fife à bec is keyless. There is no way to be certain about the flavor of whistle intended in the earliest uses of the term “tin whistle” but the Hudson whistles didn’t appear until the 1870s. The term “penny whistle” is attested first of all, with similar caution needed in the ascription of meaning to it.

FWIW the French Wikipedia article on the tin whistle is headed with the English loan word. The etymology of arigot is discussed more rigorously here.

The alternative use of the fifre (fife) and arigot (flageolet) for accompanying dance is discussed by Thoinot Arbeau in his Orchesographie, published in 1596. The former is played when the volume of the latter is insufficient. This presages the current use of full-throated “session whistles” where their tamer siblings are expected to have a rough time being heard. Between then and now, there is other evidence of the fife and whistle vying for the same musical niche. The label fife à bec really is a good one!

[Moof]

Now do we know when the first use of the term "whistle" for our instrument arises? I'm assuming it's a name inspired by the kind of whistles used for signalling, eg by the constabulary?

A whistle is just something that makes a sound by forcing air through a restricted space, so I guess it's accurate. Perhaps the use of this term, when at least one other is available, in part reflects its history as a folk instrument—something affordable to common people and given to children? For all the expertise and technology that goes into developing a modern whistle, it's still not a fancy thing.

[Terry McGee]

For all the expertise and technology that goes into developing a modern whistle, it's still not a fancy thing.

No, and that's part of the magic, isn't it. No moving parts, yet it delivers such musicality.

(Disclaimer. There are moving parts. Indeed there are lots of them. They're called air molecules. They themselves aren't much of interest because they lie around in profusion. It's how they are organised to work together in the flute and whistle that makes it special.)

[david_h]

Could 'penny whistle' be a comparison to something else? Was there an instrument referred to as a whistle, maybe colloquially, that cost sixpence, or maybe even half a guinea?

[stringbed]

Could 'penny whistle' be a comparison to something else? Was there an instrument referred to as a whistle, maybe colloquially, that cost sixpence, or maybe even half a guinea?

At the time when the English term “penny whistle” is first attested, the modifier “penny” in front of the name of a musical instrument commonly designated a toy. There is a review of early references to both the penny whistle and the tin whistle here. I’ve mentioned it a few times before but the text has just been revised and may be worth revisiting even for those who have previously read it. It also addresses the date of Robert Clarke’s entrance into the whistle biz — which was not the ever so misleading 1843 date that has been glued to it — and who was manufacturing them before his arrival. It also considers other aspects of the nominal topic of the present discussion.

[Moof]

Yes, and I also think there's something about the names penny whistle and tin whistle that implies "cheap" or "basic". It doesn't mean they can't be played with peerless skill, but the price point and simple fingering makes them very accessible—and therefore they're apt to be looked down upon as a class of instrument, even when they're not given as toys to children.

I don't even know anyone now who plays whistle as their main instrument, but I knew numerous folk musicians decades ago and there seemed to be an air of defiance about this among the whistlers. The fact that they'd never paid much more than the price of a sandwich and a pint for their instruments seemed to be a matter of pride and principle.