Making Conical Whistles of Rolled Metal- Resources?

[Terry McGee]

I've often wondered about (but never explored!) the notion of approximating a tapered bore by using a series of short lengths of the "telescoping" brass tubing sold in hobby shops. The tubes don't telescope well enough to be airtight, so you'd have to run some glue in there, or perhaps some other temporary goup if you were trying to find out the best location of holes. And it would seem logical to at chamfer the inner ends of each of the tubes to optimise airflow over the steps.

I guess the question becomes - do the improvements arising from a generally better acoustical shape more than outweigh the aerodynamic losses due to the step reductions in diameter?

Any experience along these lines anyone?

[an seanduine]

David Daye´s yer man. He did work on this before working with your fellow Aussie Craig Fischer developing the ´Squinter´, a square bored uilleann chanter.

Bob

[Terry McGee]

Ha ha, funny you should mention square - I had been also wondering if anyone had made a square whistle. Square flutes don't make sense as the jet being transverse means the vibrating air column starts out spiral. Corners would invoke losses. But whistles are longitudinal, so corners shouldn't present a problem. And the heads often start off square, so it makes some sense to continue in that form, especially in whistle fabricated from thin sheet metal.

Would probably complicate the tuning slide though, and that might be enough to rule it out.

Hmmm, I certainly remember Craig Fisher but the name David Daye doesn't immediately ring bells. Do we know if the segmented whistle notion proved successful?

[Tommy]

the notion of approximating a tapered bore by using a series of short lengths of the "telescoping" brass tubing sold in hobby shops. The tubes don't telescope well enough to be airtight, so you'd have to run some glue in there, or perhaps some other temporary goup if you were trying to find out the best location of holes. And it would seem logical to at chamfer the inner ends of each of the tubes to optimise airflow over the steps.

I guess the question becomes - do the improvements arising from a generally better acoustical shape more than outweigh the aerodynamic losses due to the step reductions in diameter?

Any experience along these lines anyone?

It is my experience that the brass tube brand of choice for telescoping is ''K&S''.
Myself and a few other makers offer a three part telescoping tube for a standard 13 mm whistle. It is convenient
to carry. K&S brass tubing is made so precise that they would slip apart. A non drying clarinet cork grease can help prevent sliding apart. I prefer to do a mechanical approach. The tubing is very thin so care must be used to put male, female chamfer without a sharp edge. Again very carefully squeeze the end of tube to make it slightly oval. The oval shape makes enough friction to hold the tubes in place without leaking.

The other effect telescoping has is removing some volume without the tone going flat. This makes for a nice quiet practice whistle.

[Tommy]

I've often wondered about (but never explored!) the notion of approximating a tapered bore by using a series of short lengths of the "telescoping" brass tubing sold in hobby shops.

I guess the question becomes - do the improvements arising from a generally better acoustical shape more than outweigh the aerodynamic losses due to the step reductions in diameter?

Any experience along these lines anyone?

I have thought of that also but have not followed through with making a segmented conical bore with step size tubing.

I do make a conical bore as mentioned earlier to achieve a soprano D whistle with Generation Bb head.

[Terry McGee]

K&S brass tubing is made so precise that they would slip apart. A non drying clarinet cork grease can help prevent sliding apart. I prefer to do a mechanical approach. The tubing is very thin so care must be used to put male, female chamfer without a sharp edge. Again very carefully squeeze the end of tube to make it slightly oval. The oval shape makes enough friction to hold the tubes in place without leaking.

Yes, I advocate the same trick with flute tuning slides. The slightly ovalised inner tube has to become round again as it enters the outer tube. But its springiness keeps it from sliding around aimlessly.

The other effect telescoping has is removing some volume without the tone going flat. This makes for a nice quiet practice whistle.

Or presumably conversely, if you don't want a quieter whistle, you enlarge the top end of the bore as much as you reduce the bottom end of the bore. I remember Boehm commenting that the volume of a flute was proportional to the volume (or was it the mass, oh well, same thing at the same altitude!) of air in motion. I don't know if that has been put to more recent and scientific scrutiny (no sound level meters in Boehm's day!), but it's probably a good enough starting point.

[Terry McGee]

I do make a conical bore as mentioned earlier to achieve a soprano D whistle with Generation Bb head.

Now that's with heavier wall tubing than Generation used? So it's not quite as outlandish as it first sounded?

[Terry McGee]

I wonder if anyone has pulled together a table of commercially available whistles sorted by bore diameter? It would be really handy when buying on-line to know what to expect. I'm imagining something like:

Bore size (Imperial, Metric): Whistles in that category.

~13/32", 10.3mm: Generation G, others?

~7/16", 11.1mm: Generation F? Others? Unmarked 6-key English B flageolet, conical 12.75/9.7mm.

~15/32", 11.9mm: Generation Eb & D, Feadog D, Killarney D, others?

~1/2", 12.7mm: (Anyone make whistles of this bore?)

~17/32", 13.5mm: Generation C, Walton's Mellow D, others?

~9/16", 14.3mm: (Anyone make whistles of this bore?)

~19/32", 15mm: Generation Bb, others?

~ 5/8", 15.9mm: (Anyone make whistles of this bore?)

etc, etc, into low whistles.

Observations:
Note, I've set them out in sizes relating to the commercially available thin-walled tubing. "~" is engineering-speak for "approximately". We might need to fiddle the list to accommodate custom sizing, if for example, some maker's bore size fell halfway between two adjacent sizes.

Questions arising:
Does the idea of such a table have any merit?
Does such a table already exist and I was too stupid to blunder this far reinventing it?
Can anyone fill in where I have left a question mark?
Anyone care to add any data of whistles they have on hand?
A single bore size works for cylindrical whistles, but not tapered. I don't have an old Clarke here, but would we list it as "Clarke C, top bore diam/foot bore diam"?
And list it under the mean of the top bore diameter and the foot bore diameter?
Note the "Unmarked 6-key English flageolet, conical 12.75/9.7mm." I've put it under 11.1mm, which is about the mean of the bore diameter (11.2mm) It sounds like a very thin whistle, and certainly not a Mellow D! Seem an appropriate approach?

[JackL]

Here is a start on such a list of high D whistles and bore diameters:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=113236

[GreenWood]

Metal clay might be a possibility as well. I haven't tried that yet, have calculated one copper clay at 10 pounds a whistle. From what I read it is more sintered, i.e. slightly grainy, but not sure on that or how pliable after firing it is. Anyway, it could be stamped in a mould and then fired, or custom whistles built on an unfired clay core that then is washed out, then the outside cleaned down by sanding or whatever if nescessary...might be a good way to try out new designs or small changes to design etc. .... but I don't know, so I guess for anyone who might like messing around a bit to get that to work . Should really read up on strength of the material given tin whistles are thin walled.

Some more or less random links

https://www.kernowcraft.com/jewellery-m ... metal-clay

https://www.craftcast.com/product/makin ... es-part-1/

https://silver-clay.com/copprclay-1000-grams.html

Smaller quantities are available obviously or

http://redwriteblue.com/metalclay/claymaking.html


Also, a wire wrapped close around a core then soldered (plumber not electric which usually contains lead) might work. I tried 1.2mm around a pair of pliers, but thinner wire and a lot of trial and error to get right temperature, flux , flow, inside finish clean from start, would be needed I think. That way a whole whistle could be wrapped on a core and finished from outside. This is just rough made, and how is clear enough from the photo, even so the smoothed surface looks much better than pictured.

[Terry McGee]

Here is a start on such a list of high D whistles and bore diameters:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=113236

Ah, thanks JackL. I should have looked before leaping. I'll have a go at reviving that conversation.

[Tommy]

I hope this helps the original post reach their goal of making whistles from flat rolled metal. Where did SirC go!

[Sirchronique]

I hope this helps the original post reach their goal of making whistles from flat rolled metal. Where did SirC go!

Busy with work stuff and still recovering from a nasty case of the flu this week, but I’ve still been on the forums reading and making the occasional comment. I will respond to individual comments to this post when my mind is feeling up to it, as there’s been a lot of extremely useful stuff shared here to unpack and talk about!

The comments have all been helpful or interesting, and they are all greatly appreciated! My thanks to everyone who has commented so far! I didn’t expect to get many responses, as I had the impression that things weren’t as active on Chiff and Fipple anymore, so it’s a pleasant surprise to receive so many helpful responses.

[Terry McGee]

Phew! I was wondering if we'd scared you off!

[Tommy]

Reverse engineering. The reproduction of another manufacturer's product following detailed examination of its construction or composition. Click on picture for larger view.
I don't think I would do this with a vintage whistle. However it was an aid to do with a pre owned Sweetone and a gift shop whistle.