Interval jumps and squeaks

[MandolinMan]

I started playing the low D whistle two months ago and I’m having trouble with certain interval jumps: going from the 2nd octave to 1st octave B or A or G causes a noticeable squeak. I can avoid the squeak by tonguing the note but I don’t really wish to rely on tonguing to produce smooth sound.

Is this a common problem with low whistles? (I don’t seem to have the problem with a high D whistle even though I don’t have any more experience with high whistles than with low whistles). And how does one overcome the issue? I keep hearing about the importance of good fingering and breath control but I don’t see any major issues with them in my playing. I’m able to move my fingers in unison and cover the holes completely and change my breath speed appropriately. Does embouchure matter in this regard?

Any help would be appreciated!

In case it matters my whistle is an MK Pro.

[Narzog]

Hey MandolinMan, welcome to the forum!

Is this when playing the same note, like 2nd octave A and immediately going down to first octave A? If it only happens when switching note, then it could be a fingering issue. but if your fingers arent moving then its not a fingering issue, at least at the core.

If you are getting it only on low whistle then it could be an Embouchure issue. high whistles overblow so easily that you can just blow harder or lighter. Low whistles I find it makes a significant difference when you change how you blow the air vs just blowing harder or softer.

[MandolinMan]

Hey Narzog and thank you for the reply!

The squeaking problem doesn't arise when I'm doing octave jumps (eg. from A to A). I did some testing and narrowed down the problem to these specific note changes: from 2nd octave G, F#, E and D to 1st octave B or A. I don't know what to make of it other than that these changes are characterized by removing fingers from holes while crossing the 2nd and 1st octave "border". So perhaps a fingering issue as you suggested. But then again why don't I then hear squeaks when going from 1st octave D to 1st octave B for example...?

You also mentioned embouchure as a possible cause for the problem. Should one change the embouchure in these difficult jumps and if so how?

[trill]

Greetings MandolinMan,

I'm a great fan of playing Low-D. I wanted to play flute but couldn't get the cross-blowing bit to work. I thought whistles would be a "temporary" bridge, but, I'm now a whistle-holic.

For me, the most common reason I get squeaks is incomplete hole-closure.

The hole-size + finger-stretch of Low-D simply make it harder to completely+quickly close the holes. Slow, careful practice is how I get around it. High-D's are simply easier to reach+close.

Could you post sound clips or video clips ?

I'm not sure if you're referring to jumping an entire octave or some smaller interval.

Welcome to whistling !

trill

[Narzog]

Adding to what Trill mentioned on improper hole closer causing squeaks. Some whistles do this more than others, but you may be getting the squeaks from the split second that your fingers are 'leaking' air, when you are removing the fingers. Because they dont truly go from covered to uncovered, theres a very short amount of time where they can be partially covered. So you may be able to remove them more snappily and cleanly.

It also could have to do with blowing pressure. These leaking squeaks can happen more when blowing harder, so it makes sense that you would get them coming from second octave going down, but dont get them in the first octave. You may be able to blow less hard to play the notes in tune. This is a big maybe tho, and also can be effected by tuning slide position (how hard you need to blow to be in tune).

On Embouchure, I dont change mine while playing really. I just always have my cheeks more sucked in now and my lips close together. Think of trying to blow a hard Pppp or Ffffff sound at high pressure. This is much easier to do when everything is tight and sucked in. and to me if playing the high notes is easier its also easier to transition to playing the low notes. This helps more on low whistle, especially harder blowing ones like my Reyburn, which is what made me learn to play like this. Before I just put the mouthpiece in my mouth and blew, and it was really hard to play second octave.

[MandolinMan]

Thank you both for your replies! Perhaps it is the case, as you suggested, that my fingers just aren’t moving as quickly or at the same time as I imagined. I don’t see or feel any problems with my fingering technique but if we are talking about tiny fractions of seconds then maybe I’m just not perceptive enough to notice imperfections.

Strangely though I just noticed that the squeaks happen mainly when I play the lower note in tune. If I play it flat then I can avoid the squeaks. Related to this, the squeaks only happen when the lower note is a one that I have to play as loudly as the high notes (in order it to be in tune), for example low B and middle D. In those cases I can’t drop the airspeed and volume when switching to the lower note and thus the squeak happens.

I’d be curious to know if you guys had similar problems when you were first starting out playing the whistle?

[trill]

. . . tiny fractions of seconds . . .

Yes

. . . lower note is a one that I have to play as loudly as the high notes. . .

Yes. This is a "feature" of whistles. You simply have to let the lower notes be quieter.

. . . I’d be curious to know if you guys had similar problems when you were first starting out playing the whistle? . . .

Yes.

I remember my early days of whistling, practicing in my car so as not to disturb neighbors.

On the subject of accurate fingering: tonguing hides a world of sins.

The term "breath control" refers to learning the right blow-push for each note. You'll get the hang of it.

[Narzog]

Another thing, make sure your tuning slide isnt pulled out too far. Because this would make you have to blow the low notes extra hard to be in tune. If its in the right position, you should have to blow just slightly harder for each note to play in tune going up the scale. If you have to blow super hard for xoo ooo to be in tune, then less hard for second octave xxx xxx to be in tune, then your tuning slide is out too far. Because the tuning slide effects the notes closer to the mouthpiece more so if its out too far the intonation will be messed up.

[MandolinMan]

Ok, I might be able to make some progress here now. I worked the tuning slide and it made transitioning from 2nd octave D to 1st octave B a bit more pleasant because now I don't have to increase the volume. I also am sometimes able to get rid of the squeaks if I allow the lower note to be somewhat flat (or the high note to be sharp) because it means that I'm dropping the airspeed when transitioning between the notes. Weirdly I also noticed that if my whistle clogs up just a bit from saliva, it tends to significantly decrease squeaking. Too bad I can't make that the permanent state of the whistle!

I'm still trying to NOT hide my bad technique by tonguing. I find that tonguing emphasizes the note and more often than not the squeaky note is not one that I would otherwise emphasize. Of course tonguing in odd places sounds better than squeaking but it sounds a bit weird still.

[Narzog]

Ok, I might be able to make some progress here now. I worked the tuning slide and it made transitioning from 2nd octave D to 1st octave B a bit more pleasant because now I don't have to increase the volume. I also am sometimes able to get rid of the squeaks if I allow the lower note to be somewhat flat (or the high note to be sharp) because it means that I'm dropping the airspeed when transitioning between the notes. Weirdly I also noticed that if my whistle clogs up just a bit from saliva, it tends to significantly decrease squeaking. Too bad I can't make that the permanent state of the whistle!

I'm still trying to NOT hide my bad technique by tonguing. I find that tonguing emphasizes the note and more often than not the squeaky note is not one that I would otherwise emphasize. Of course tonguing in odd places sounds better than squeaking but it sounds a bit weird still.

Just to clarify. You should be blowing harder on higher notes than lower notes. The higher the harder. Think of a smooth and predictable curve of pressure increasing as you go up in note. And volume should be similar. Lower notes should be quieter. If you finagled the tuning slide or are playing to be able to blow low notes and high notes the same pressure, or are intentionally playing out of tune, something not right. Which is not ideal because you will learn and develop bad habits.

It seems like you may be doing this now but I feel like you shouldnt need to play any notes flat or out of tune. My MK's have excellent tuning and intonation so you should definitely be able to play all notes in tune while causing no issues.

Interestingly, I find whistles get way more squeaks when they have any moisture. The water droplets mess up the air flow. Luckily for me my MK's have 0 moisture issues.

[pancelticpiper]

This may or may not be related to what you're experiencing.

Decades of playing flute taught me that when the cork was in the exact perfect position I could smoothly transition between octaves like this:

1) play a good solid G in the low octave.
2) begin introducing the 2nd octave G gradually
3) come to a point where both octaves of G are sounding equally
4) begin reducing the low-octave G
5) come to a point where it's a pure 2nd octave G.

If the cork wasn't in the precisely correct position I couldn't do the above thing, and there would be a break between the octaves no matter how I tried to do it smoothly. If I went slow the low-octave G would begin fluttering, then break to the 2nd-octave G.

When chronic hand issues forced me to give up flute and adopt Low D Whistle as a flute substitute the first thing that struck me was that nearly all Low D's "had their cork in the wrong place" according to the trick above.

Of course all those whistles didn't have corks, and they played the octaves in tune, but rare is the Low D whistle on which that trick can be done.

Which is to say that there's usually a break between the octaves on Low D Whistles.

[trill]

. . . smoothly transition between octaves . . .

Interesting.

I have a Dixon A with which, once in a while, I could manage an "octave slur" going down.

The melody had a second octave D at a good place for a retard. But, since it was the "last time through", we sustained for a bit to make a concluding moment. It was during that moment I would try to slur down.

Some days it worked, some days it didn't. Perhaps the phenomenon is, as you describe, very sensitive to the tuning slide position.

Thank you for the insight. Of course, now I'll go have to try . . .

trill

[MandolinMan]

Ok, I might be able to make some progress here now. I worked the tuning slide and it made transitioning from 2nd octave D to 1st octave B a bit more pleasant because now I don't have to increase the volume. I also am sometimes able to get rid of the squeaks if I allow the lower note to be somewhat flat (or the high note to be sharp) because it means that I'm dropping the airspeed when transitioning between the notes. Weirdly I also noticed that if my whistle clogs up just a bit from saliva, it tends to significantly decrease squeaking. Too bad I can't make that the permanent state of the whistle!

I'm still trying to NOT hide my bad technique by tonguing. I find that tonguing emphasizes the note and more often than not the squeaky note is not one that I would otherwise emphasize. Of course tonguing in odd places sounds better than squeaking but it sounds a bit weird still.

Just to clarify. You should be blowing harder on higher notes than lower notes. The higher the harder. Think of a smooth and predictable curve of pressure increasing as you go up in note. And volume should be similar. Lower notes should be quieter. If you finagled the tuning slide or are playing to be able to blow low notes and high notes the same pressure, or are intentionally playing out of tune, something not right. Which is not ideal because you will learn and develop bad habits.

It seems like you may be doing this now but I feel like you shouldnt need to play any notes flat or out of tune. My MK's have excellent tuning and intonation so you should definitely be able to play all notes in tune while causing no issues.

Interestingly, I find whistles get way more squeaks when they have any moisture. The water droplets mess up the air flow. Luckily for me my MK's have 0 moisture issues.

This is interesting! Based on what you wrote I went and tested my whistles. I played 1st octave C# and 2nd octave D and noticed that the higher note has to be played with LESS pressure than the lower one if I want them both to be in tune. This is true no matter how I positioned my tuning slide. Also, this is true of both of my low D whistles (MK Pro and Kerry Optima) but not my Bb Generation. Do I have two faulty whistles in my hands?

I seem to remember having heard that in some whistles the second octave is purposefully designed to be slightly sharper than the first octave (for reasons that I've forgotten but something to do with sound or playability). Is this note the case?

[Narzog]

This is interesting! Based on what you wrote I went and tested my whistles. I played 1st octave C# and 2nd octave D and noticed that the higher note has to be played with LESS pressure than the lower one if I want them both to be in tune. This is true no matter how I positioned my tuning slide. Also, this is true of both of my low D whistles (MK Pro and Kerry Optima) but not my Bb Generation. Do I have two faulty whistles in my hands?

I seem to remember having heard that in some whistles the second octave is purposefully designed to be slightly sharper than the first octave (for reasons that I've forgotten but something to do with sound or playability). Is this note the case?

What I said doesnt work 100% in practice across all notes on all whistles, your whistles should be fine haha. ooo ooo is usually a bit flat and usually takes a bit more push than the start of the second octave. To my knowledge this is partially so that oxx ooo cross fingers well. If the note was sharper the cross fingering would end sharp. On my MK non tunable low f (so I cant position the slide where it wasnt intended) ooo ooo and xxx xxx second octave play in tune at very similar pressure, first octave is maybe the slightest bit harder. On my Mk low D where I have the slide set xoo ooo and xxx xxx second octave play at about the same pressure. My main point is that if xoo ooo takes noticeably more push then the second octave you may have the slide out too far. Because then you just have really weird breath curve, of going down in pressure to go higher in notes but then up in pressure to go higher, etc. Vs you go up or stay the same as you go up which feels much smoother.

Which is to say that there's usually a break between the octaves on Low D Whistles.

I actually really like whistles that have a very distinct break. Because it bugs me when I push a note and it gets all raspy as its like half broken to the second octave.

[MandolinMan]

This is interesting! Based on what you wrote I went and tested my whistles. I played 1st octave C# and 2nd octave D and noticed that the higher note has to be played with LESS pressure than the lower one if I want them both to be in tune. This is true no matter how I positioned my tuning slide. Also, this is true of both of my low D whistles (MK Pro and Kerry Optima) but not my Bb Generation. Do I have two faulty whistles in my hands?

I seem to remember having heard that in some whistles the second octave is purposefully designed to be slightly sharper than the first octave (for reasons that I've forgotten but something to do with sound or playability). Is this note the case?

What I said doesnt work 100% in practice across all notes on all whistles, your whistles should be fine haha. ooo ooo is usually a bit flat and usually takes a bit more push than the start of the second octave. To my knowledge this is partially so that oxx ooo cross fingers well. If the note was sharper the cross fingering would end sharp. On my MK non tunable low f (so I cant position the slide where it wasnt intended) ooo ooo and xxx xxx second octave play in tune at very similar pressure, first octave is maybe the slightest bit harder. On my Mk low D where I have the slide set xoo ooo and xxx xxx second octave play at about the same pressure. My main point is that if xoo ooo takes noticeably more push then the second octave you may have the slide out too far. Because then you just have really weird breath curve, of going down in pressure to go higher in notes but then up in pressure to go higher, etc. Vs you go up or stay the same as you go up which feels much smoother.

Which is to say that there's usually a break between the octaves on Low D Whistles.

I actually really like whistles that have a very distinct break. Because it bugs me when I push a note and it gets all raspy as its like half broken to the second octave.

Ok, thanks for the clarification! I’m glad to know there is nothing wrong with my whistles. And thanks for everyone for helping me with this issue! What I think I need to do is to focus on good fingering technique. Breathing doesn’t seem to be the issue because the 2nd octave D and 1st octave B need the same amount of air and still the squeaks happen. So fingering must be causing the issue.

I’m new on this forum and I can already tell this is a community of great people!