Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

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GeeseSoaring
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Tell us something.: This forum is about learning and sharing knowledge of the tin whistle and maybe other wind related instruments, although I had not investigated others, tin whistle being my instrument of choice. I would like to ask questions and maybe gain guidance from those with more experience, to help my own playing. I feel I do not have too much to share yet but an enthusiasm and passion for irish music which I hope will be sufficient.

Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by GeeseSoaring »

Narzog wrote: Fri Jun 03, 2022 5:31 pm Her pauses were fine, but she only dropped a beat or two total. Not sure if it was needed to unclog or something or just intentional ornamentation. A lot of tunes can be repetitive so it can be cool to spice it up by playing repeat parts differently. If you could get your pauses to be this short and in the right spots, it would work. But the longer the pause, the fewer tunes it will work in. Short pauses and breaths fit in a lot more places than longer pauses.

I missed your new sound clip at the end. But listening to it now the playing is good but the pause is still too long. If its possible to swallow twice as fast and only miss 2 beats it might work. But ideal pauses are usually only 1. Just my opinion, I'm not an irish music master by any stretch.

The reason I went off topic talking about flutes, is to me there's always more than one was to fix a problem. A lot of the times people will be so busy trying to solve a problem one way that they might not notice the other possible solutions. I read your problem as you want to play live but have to pause to swallow. To me not needing to swallow is a lot easier than trying to make swallowing fit on every tune. Flute is just one of the ways to accomplish this. You can pick whatever solution you want, I'm just giving alternatives you can consider.
Seems to be some conflation of beats vs notes here? To my ear she drops a couple of notes of 3 notes the first time, with no beat dropped and the second pause she drops a whole beat so, 3+ notes before come back in on the on beat. Sounds like you were calling notes beats from your explanation? Anyway in my second clip I don't drop any more than her, just one beat so the gap should be the same as hers. Maybe you thought it was mine sounded like more just because she is playing faster in her video cip.

Also in terms of phrasing and where to do it, I am confused since people have saying only do it between phrases, yet she doesn't in this example yet it is considered 'right' or I don't get the meaning of what is and isn't a phrase. Anyway as people are saying this is right and good I can just follow her example and take it to other tunes.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by benhall.1 »

GeeseSoaring wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:35 am Anyway in my second clip I don't drop any more than her, just one beat so the gap should be the same as hers. Maybe you thought it was mine sounded like more just because she is playing faster in her video cip.
The point is - or at least it would be my point - that she does it in such a way that the rhythm is not lost. In your second example, i actually thought t was worse than your first, because you lost the feel of the tune. You have to learn when you can make a brief pause, and it really should be brief - yours is still too long. I think you'll just have to listen to a whole load of really good whistle players and try and work out where they're doing it until you get the feel for it
GeeseSoaring wrote:Also in terms of phrasing and where to do it, I am confused since people have saying only do it between phrases, yet she doesn't in this example yet it is considered 'right' or I don't get the meaning of what is and isn't a phrase. Anyway as people are saying this is right and good I can just follow her example and take it to other tunes.
What she does is elegant and lovely, and it doesn't lose the rhythm. From what you're posting here - words as well as your clips - I'm not sure you've yet worked out why hers is good and yours isn't. Until you do, you won't be able to apply it to other tunes. So you need to listen a whole lot more.
GeeseSoaring
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Tell us something.: This forum is about learning and sharing knowledge of the tin whistle and maybe other wind related instruments, although I had not investigated others, tin whistle being my instrument of choice. I would like to ask questions and maybe gain guidance from those with more experience, to help my own playing. I feel I do not have too much to share yet but an enthusiasm and passion for irish music which I hope will be sufficient.

Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by GeeseSoaring »

benhall.1 wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:11 am I think you'll just have to listen to a whole load of really good whistle players and try and work out where they're doing it until you get the feel for it
That is precisely my problem though. Since it is not a regular thing that the majority of players do with any regularity, these specific type of pauses, from all the audio I have heard so far of whistle players, the source material is hard to come by to learn from.

All players do breath notes, so that was simple to find examples, but these longer pauses I have had a very hard time finding good examples of except for this girl's clip. So what would be most useful would be if people could post some more examples of other respectable players doing the same type of thing.
What she does is elegant and lovely, and it doesn't lose the rhythm. From what you're posting here - words as well as your clips - I'm not sure you've yet worked out why hers is good and yours isn't. Until you do, you won't be able to apply it to other tunes. So you need to listen a whole lot more.
That is ironic because it is not my choice for putting it there. If you look back at the first page I am just putting it there on advice of another player who replied to me in another thread on reddit, who also replied in this thread. They were the one to suggest that as being a more appropriate place to put it, or at least I put it in the same place they put it in theirs in a different part which is very similar to the part where I did it. So not my personal choice at all but rather following the example they set, that being: https://voca.ro/1m1XCQXdUfWs which was right above the link I posted on that reply.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

All players do breath notes, so that was simple to find examples, but these longer pauses I have had a very hard time finding good examples of except for this girl's clip. So what would be most useful would be if people could post some more examples of other respectable players doing the same type of thing.
In general you don't drop notes that are on the beat, it just isn't the done thing.
I don't get the meaning of what is and isn't a phrase
Understanding the structure of tunes in Irish traditional; music is a very basic requirement. Tunes are not a mere string of notes that you roll off, they are a bunch of musical phrases. Think of it as a statement-response thing or a question-reply thing, a conversation if you like. A good player puts a clear structure on their playing, it is exasperating having to listen to players who don't. I said about your initial example you didn't resolve the phrase. It's like stopping in mid sentence during a conversation, it strips the thing of meaning.

And ofcourse there's more to it : there are several layers you have to deal with, rhythmic and melodic. Some notes are more important than others: some notes carry the structure of the melody, others hold it together. The bones of the tune and connective tissue if you like. Rhythm is another one, pulse, internal rhythms, the whole lot. I won't even start on that other than to say without rhythm you really don't have anything at all. But all these things work together and mean that you can't just drop any old note at the drop of a hat without upsettingt hings one way or another.

It could be worth your while to start reading this article to get a take on how jigs work. Then, equipped with what you've read, go back listening to good players. It will take a while, an ongoing process perhaps, but learning to listen well is really a skill you want to acquire before you can become a decent player.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by benhall.1 »

GeeseSoaring wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 3:38 am
benhall.1 wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 2:11 am What she does is elegant and lovely, and it doesn't lose the rhythm. From what you're posting here - words as well as your clips - I'm not sure you've yet worked out why hers is good and yours isn't. Until you do, you won't be able to apply it to other tunes. So you need to listen a whole lot more.
That is ironic because it is not my choice for putting it there. If you look back at the first page I am just putting it there on advice of another player who replied to me in another thread on reddit, who also replied in this thread. They were the one to suggest that as being a more appropriate place to put it, or at least I put it in the same place they put it in theirs in a different part which is very similar to the part where I did it. So not my personal choice at all but rather following the example they set, that being: https://voca.ro/1m1XCQXdUfWs which was right above the link I posted on that reply.
I've listened - again and again - to your clip of the 3rd part of The Old Grey Goose, and I've listened to the example clip you gave, where whoever was playing (was it Mr. G?) was greatly exaggerating to make the point. I really can't see any connection between the two. The 'example' works - it's not the way one would play it in any practical setting, but it still works; yours doesn't. I can't work out the rhythm of yours. You didn't do what was suggested. So yes, I think it's your choice to put those strange, and overlong gaps where you've put them.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

was it Mr. G?)
No, it wasn't me. :o
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by Narzog »

GeeseSoaring wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:35 am Seems to be some conflation of beats vs notes here? To my ear she drops a couple of notes of 3 notes the first time, with no beat dropped and the second pause she drops a whole beat so, 3+ notes before come back in on the on beat. Sounds like you were calling notes beats from your explanation?
I meant total time dropped added together. The individual pauses were shorter. I could be thinking her pause is longer than it is. I dont specialise in counting notes for the same reason I cant make or use tabs. I just try to play what I hear or sounds good in my head haha.

But I'll leave the rest to the others who have exponentially more ITM experience than me.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by bigsciota »

Just to be clear, the example above was mine, and very very much exaggerated. Mainly trying to show how you could force pauses in if you had to, rather than how I would play the tune (I don’t actually play it at all, hence just looping the one phrase!). When you feel like you have to take such a long pause you end up really having to shoehorn it in somehow, and so I was trying to figure out where the best, or really just least worst, spots to do so might be.

OP, ultimately I think a big issue about phrasing is that it is incredibly hard to explain a single way of describing it, it really is a “know it when you hear it” issue. So the idea of listening to a bunch of players is important. Even if they’re not taking such long pauses, you’ll get a better sense of the phrasing they use and you can use that to inform your own playing.

I know you’ve worked to try to mitigate the saliva issue, but I think that solving that somehow is going to be a much better solution than dropping beats. I won’t pretend to know the answer to how to solve it, but either figuring out how to cut down on salivation or learn how to play through it would be much, much more helpful in the long run.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by Nanohedron »

GeeseSoaring wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 3:38 amThat is precisely my problem though. Since it is not a regular thing that the majority of players do with any regularity, these specific type of pauses, from all the audio I have heard so far of whistle players, the source material is hard to come by to learn from.

All players do breath notes, so that was simple to find examples, but these longer pauses I have had a very hard time finding good examples of except for this girl's clip. So what would be most useful would be if people could post some more examples of other respectable players doing the same type of thing.
Maybe this vid will help: Here's Vinnie Kilduff - always worth listening to - playing a fine Tatter Jack Walsh. At around 1:06 he uses a longer pause compared to what he does prior. But it doesn't sound all that long unless you're paying attention which, I think, is where the art comes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X17HLvE7MWY

I'm not suggesting that he's trying to deceive us that the longer pause isn't what it is; I'm suggesting that it's so well placed that it doesn't intrude, and becomes integral to the rhythm and melody, as one feature of many.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by david_h »

GeeseSoaring wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 1:35 am Seems to be some conflation of beats vs notes here? To my ear she drops a couple of notes of 3 notes the first time, with no beat dropped and the second pause she drops a whole beat so, 3+ notes before come back in on the on beat. Sounds like you were calling notes beats from your explanation?
Dunno about conflation but I'm confused about the terminology. Normally if someone says 'drop a beat' I think they mean miss out the notes for the beat and the time they would take By 'drop two beats in a jig' you seem to be meaning not playing the notes for two beats but putting silence in their place so you stay in time with the tune.

Neither you nor the girl in the clip are missing beats as I would understand it. She fingers the ones she doesn't sound at 1.03 Do you mean missing on-beat notes? As someone said above that's rarely done. You found a clip of someone missing one - but it follows two staccato notes so is part of something which you won't find people advising you to do to sound 'traditional'. (I see Flook is mentioned in the clip title and wonder if that syncopated bit could be a musical reference to them. Edit - seems to be a Brian Finnegan tune)

But you need to sort out the need for long gaps. I do suck moisture if needed, it doesn't go far into my mouth. I think that most of the time I do it as part of a quick breath, taking most of the air in through my nose.
Last edited by david_h on Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by David Cooper »

Perhaps the best solution would be a custom-made instrument with a second opening below the normal one leading into a "spittoon compartment" which could be emptied between pieces. Excess saliva would simply drain into that whenever necessary without you even needing to think about it - I've just tried playing a tin whistle with my mouth open at one corner and it doesn't affect the playing at all beyond the extra air loss and a bit of hiss coming from the extra opening, but the spittoon compartment would only have one opening while playing so there would be no air loss and no hiss. There are enough weird looking whistles about already with bulky heads which don't provide that facility, so no one would even notice that there's anything extra going on in it. Emptying it would be hard without a second opening, of course, but it could have a draining hole like the ones on trumpets so that you can open that by pressing a lever and then blow the content out.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by Nanohedron »

david_h wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 11:32 amNormally if someone says 'drop a beat' I think they mean miss out the notes for the beat and the time they would take By 'drop two beats in a jig' you seem to be meaning not playing the notes for two beats but putting silence in their place so you stay in time with the tune.
Maybe this is part of the confusion. GeeseSoaring asked about dropping 2 beats, but the pause in the example was far greater than I expected. It may be that his Reddit sources were the ones first conflating notes with beats. To be fair, we'll do that too, but it's just a manner of speaking, in that a note is a unit of time. I do think it's better to speak of dropping notes than "beats", as it makes confusion less likely. "Beat", as GeeseSoaring seems to have taken it, strikes me more as akin to the steady pulse, the heartbeat, if you will. That's something you don't want to drop.
David Cooper wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:00 pm Perhaps the best solution would be a custom-made instrument with a second opening below the normal one leading into a "spittoon compartment" which could be emptied between pieces.
Just what a whistle needs: A colostomy bag.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Let's not create more confusion now, the op in his initial clip played:

GBG FAF GEE E2 F DFA dAG ZZZ ZZZ GFG AGA ...etc

missing two full beats, six or so notes. Which creates a chasm in the tune and completely breaks the flow.

We all drop notes, for effect, out of necessity etc. This is of a different magnitude.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by Nanohedron »

Mr.Gumby wrote:... missing two full beats, six or so notes. Which creates a chasm in the tune and completely breaks the flow.
Right. That's what I was trying to say, but it was murkier. One mustn't drop beats (sections), only individual notes.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?

Post by an seanduine »

David Cooper wrote: Sat Jun 04, 2022 12:00 pm Perhaps the best solution would be a custom-made instrument with a second opening below the normal one leading into a "spittoon compartment" which could be emptied between pieces.
Just what a whistle needs: A colostomy bag.
[/quote]

Not exactly an ´ostomy bag, but consider the solution the flageolet makers chose. Flageolets are a fancy-pants version of a whistle, with narrower windways and a penchant for clogging. They incorporated a small chamber into the beak to hold a sponge or a swatch of wool to capture the moisture. See here:https://www.flute-a-bec.com/indexgb.html
for a discussion of this by a modern maker.

Bob
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The Beginner's mind has endless possibilities.
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