Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
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Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
I had recently started trying to play jigs and reels up to speed at around 112 and 96 bpms respectively.
I have a thing where I must swallow by the time the 2nd round of a two part tune starts otherwise it gets uncomfortable and I don't enjoy playing until I have swallowed. If it is a 4 part+ tune then I will have to do it by the start of the 3rd part.
I have been playing for several years now and it hasn't 'gone away' as many people said it would earlier on my path so I must find the best way to work this in.
I have tried to put it in musically like one would with breath notes.
Here is an example of where I tried to add it where I thought it would sound 'ok' taking advice from someone who said to do it between phrases (I am still figuring out what is and isn't a phrase though beyond the obvious ones):
here
I have searched high and low on the net and it seems the only two options that other wind players offer up are either just don't swallow (no good for me as mentioned above) or spit into your instrument, as in the case of trumpet and flute players, which I find disgusting. I would sooner have an awkward pause in playing to swallow than that. Ideally though I want a not awkward pause or as graceful as could be hoped for.
I notice a lot of contemporary bands add gaps when playing for 'impact' so I was thinking I can just adopt that for this practical purpose while it seeming like a drama/impact pause.
As noted I have figured out that 2 beats must be dropped when playing up to speed for the given tune types in order to have ample time for swallowing - it takes way longer than breathing!
Please could you advise how/where I could best do it in tunes to make it sound as good as possible. I do not want any advice to spit or just don't swallow etc. I have received that countless times. I am asking, if I have to do it, which I do in order to feel proper comfort when playing, then how and where should I best do it.
I was advised lately that it will not fly when playing solo and I could only get away with it if playing with others but where there's a will there's a way riiight?
Examples would be great, either playing a part, maybe the one I did above, or from professional recordings.
I have a thing where I must swallow by the time the 2nd round of a two part tune starts otherwise it gets uncomfortable and I don't enjoy playing until I have swallowed. If it is a 4 part+ tune then I will have to do it by the start of the 3rd part.
I have been playing for several years now and it hasn't 'gone away' as many people said it would earlier on my path so I must find the best way to work this in.
I have tried to put it in musically like one would with breath notes.
Here is an example of where I tried to add it where I thought it would sound 'ok' taking advice from someone who said to do it between phrases (I am still figuring out what is and isn't a phrase though beyond the obvious ones):
here
I have searched high and low on the net and it seems the only two options that other wind players offer up are either just don't swallow (no good for me as mentioned above) or spit into your instrument, as in the case of trumpet and flute players, which I find disgusting. I would sooner have an awkward pause in playing to swallow than that. Ideally though I want a not awkward pause or as graceful as could be hoped for.
I notice a lot of contemporary bands add gaps when playing for 'impact' so I was thinking I can just adopt that for this practical purpose while it seeming like a drama/impact pause.
As noted I have figured out that 2 beats must be dropped when playing up to speed for the given tune types in order to have ample time for swallowing - it takes way longer than breathing!
Please could you advise how/where I could best do it in tunes to make it sound as good as possible. I do not want any advice to spit or just don't swallow etc. I have received that countless times. I am asking, if I have to do it, which I do in order to feel proper comfort when playing, then how and where should I best do it.
I was advised lately that it will not fly when playing solo and I could only get away with it if playing with others but where there's a will there's a way riiight?
Examples would be great, either playing a part, maybe the one I did above, or from professional recordings.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
I am afraid whoever told you, was right. Leaving a gap of a whole bar just won't work, especially in your example, where you don't resolve the phrase and that's extremely disruptive. On top of thatt he Old Grey Goose is a six parter and leaving out two beats every other part will just break up the tune too much.was advised lately that it will not fly when playing solo and I could only get away with it if playing with others but where there's a will there's a way riiight?
I can only suggest you get used swallowing a little before you really need to, like you would taking breaths: small ones skipping perhaps a note here and there rather than letting your air run out, necessitating a big haul that potentially disrupts the flow.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
It sounds like you have an excess saliva problem. It's apparently not that uncommon, as the issue has come up before. It has been suggested that the problem can be somewhat alleviated by keeping well hydrated (drinking water all day).
Additionally, avoid toothpaste with foaming agents such as sodium lauryl sulfate that actually dry out the mouth. The salivary glands seem to over-compensate.
Here's another take on the problem as encountered by (primarily) Boehm flutists. It has some possibly helpful tips:
https://jennifercluff.blogspot.com/2007 ... t-too.html
Additionally, avoid toothpaste with foaming agents such as sodium lauryl sulfate that actually dry out the mouth. The salivary glands seem to over-compensate.
Here's another take on the problem as encountered by (primarily) Boehm flutists. It has some possibly helpful tips:
https://jennifercluff.blogspot.com/2007 ... t-too.html
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
If I'm not very much mistaken you're the person who was asking about this on Reddit. I'm the guy who responded, and I'm at least glad to know others don't think I was off base!
Here's an analogy that I hope helps you out a bit. Playing a tune is kind of like taking a walk through a park. If you're walking down a path, every so often there are park benches. These are the best places to stop and take a rest for a bit. Often, they come at the ends of paths, or the intersection of one path with another. But not always!
As you walk along the path you might also come across upturned logs, rocks, and other places where you could stop to take a rest if necessary. They're not as comfortable as park benches, but they'd work in a pinch. They're also really good for a brief stop to tie your shoes or get something out of your backpack.
In tunes, the "park benches" are usually at the ends of a part, and sometimes also in the middle of a part where there's a natural feeling of a phrase ending. Melodies usually have a sense of "going somewhere," just like a path. Listen to the tune for a bit, really get the feel of it, and you'll figure it out. Unfortunately I can't really give any hard-and-fast rules as to where these are, they're very much a "know it when you hear it"-type thing! When you find them, those can often be your "steal a full beat" spots.
The "logs and rocks" of a tune are pretty much anywhere where there is a long note, an arpeggio, a roll, a "down to the note below then back up again;" they're all over the place usually! Listen to other players (preferably really good ones) play a tune and you'll often find them stealing a breath all over the place. You only get about an eighth not to do it, but you can do it. The issue is that sitting on a log isn't very comfortable, so you don't want to stay for long. If you try to take too long a pause in these sections you'll end up leaving out important bits of the tune.
I gave you some ideas for pauses in that part of the tune in the recording I made on the Reddit thread. But as I and others have said, take any more than a beat and you're in very dicey territory. Try instead to top up/swallow some as you go, and maybe try some of the suggestions that might cut down on salivation.
Here's an analogy that I hope helps you out a bit. Playing a tune is kind of like taking a walk through a park. If you're walking down a path, every so often there are park benches. These are the best places to stop and take a rest for a bit. Often, they come at the ends of paths, or the intersection of one path with another. But not always!
As you walk along the path you might also come across upturned logs, rocks, and other places where you could stop to take a rest if necessary. They're not as comfortable as park benches, but they'd work in a pinch. They're also really good for a brief stop to tie your shoes or get something out of your backpack.
In tunes, the "park benches" are usually at the ends of a part, and sometimes also in the middle of a part where there's a natural feeling of a phrase ending. Melodies usually have a sense of "going somewhere," just like a path. Listen to the tune for a bit, really get the feel of it, and you'll figure it out. Unfortunately I can't really give any hard-and-fast rules as to where these are, they're very much a "know it when you hear it"-type thing! When you find them, those can often be your "steal a full beat" spots.
The "logs and rocks" of a tune are pretty much anywhere where there is a long note, an arpeggio, a roll, a "down to the note below then back up again;" they're all over the place usually! Listen to other players (preferably really good ones) play a tune and you'll often find them stealing a breath all over the place. You only get about an eighth not to do it, but you can do it. The issue is that sitting on a log isn't very comfortable, so you don't want to stay for long. If you try to take too long a pause in these sections you'll end up leaving out important bits of the tune.
I gave you some ideas for pauses in that part of the tune in the recording I made on the Reddit thread. But as I and others have said, take any more than a beat and you're in very dicey territory. Try instead to top up/swallow some as you go, and maybe try some of the suggestions that might cut down on salivation.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
Are you really able to swallow in the same time it takes to take a breath or are you simply talking theoretically? I don't think it is possible to do in the time it takes to take a breath note which would usually be a quarter note. Certainly hasn't been for me anyway and it has nothing to do with the amount of saliva built up. The time required is the same for a small or large amount. It is the act of swallowing that requires a lot more diverse muscle movement compared to just opening the gob to suck/blow out.Mr.Gumby wrote: ↑Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:03 am I am afraid whoever told you, was right. Leaving a gap of a whole bar just won't work, especially in your example, where you don't resolve the phrase and that's extremely disruptive. On top of thatt he Old Grey Goose is a six parter and leaving out two beats every other part will just break up the tune too much.
I can only suggest you get used swallowing a little before you really need to, like you would taking breaths: small ones skipping perhaps a note here and there rather than letting your air run out, necessitating a big haul that potentially disrupts the flow.
Yes it is me. Thank you for the analogy but I still don't think I understand phrasing any better yet .
I have felt at an impasse this week, having to accept that such a huge pause of that initially suggested is unacceptable and yet not having any other solution. It has sapped my motivation to practice. I usually practice at least an hour a day but I have barely picked up the whistle due to this apparent 'roadblock'.
All I can think of currently is just accept that I will have to do it sometimes and when playing with others just drop out for as long as I have to and do it. If a solo instance is presented maybe always make an excuse to only play a single 2 part jig/reel and no more. I am able to play up to 4 (2x2) as about my comfort limit with no swallow.
I shall continue trying to improve my swallow speed. Maybe it is a skill that can be refined to much greater efficacy with ample practice. I will try making it a specific exercise to improve on. If I can shave it down to 1 beat dropped then that would be acceptable to start adding it in to tunes in a musical fashion yes?
As to where to put it, can I have any pointers there? Isn't there just a basic schema of where I can know I could drop a beat in the same place in any tune? For example with breath notes it is commonly said to drop the note after the on-beat. Is there an equivalent reliable 'rule of thumb' where it could be said where you can drop a beat?
Following the advice above from the previous reddit thread I tried doing the same in the 3rd part. Does that sound ok?EDIT: don’t know the tune well (Old Grey Goose, right?), but in that phrase I tried running through a few places where I personally would put pauses. I’m no expert or anything, just trying to give some ideas! Also Vocaroo cut off the end for some reason: https://voca.ro/1m1XCQXdUfWs
Last edited by GeeseSoaring on Fri Jun 03, 2022 6:29 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
I was comparing a small swallow to the way you (should) approach breathing playing a tune. So, don't wait until you have to but little bits when you can. An analogy, if you like.Are you really able to swallow in the same time it takes to take a breath or are you simply talking theoretically?
So I said :
a little before you really need to, like you would taking breaths
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
Weird thought. Does playing flute create less spit than playing whistle? I was thinking that people spit when playing wind instruments, and some make more than others, so it shouldn't be avoided. But then I was thinking that I've never noticeably spit or dreuled while playing flute.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
It may be that way with me. I've noticed that with the flute I can't remember EVER having excess spit issues, no matter how long I'm playing for. The condensation accumulation inside the flute tube is a different topic, and even that, it only takes a minute to separate the flute parts after an hour, quickly wipe it out with a cloth and cleaning stick, and continue playing. But playing whistle, spit level seems like an immediately impending issue. I do my best to avoid getting any saliva/slobber/oatmeal/coffee/muffin slime anywhere near the end of the windway, and yet simply having that protrusion in my mouth seems to trigger some sort of "chewing and salivating" organic system reaction, like a coyote suddenly seeing a jackrabbit. Dinner! So far I haven't played any whistles with blueberry, butterscotch or chocolate flavored mouthpieces, and the dull as dull flavor they are, is enough to make me start horking after some time, to keep my embouchure at the proper level of natural humidity, to drain the lake. Maybe whistle players should be drinking bitter teas and beers to help dry out their mouths, avoid sugary anything, and tell the front row the whistle player may be horking a lot, so duck under their pub tables.Narzog wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:51 am Weird thought. Does playing flute create less spit than playing whistle? I was thinking that people spit when playing wind instruments, and some make more than others, so it shouldn't be avoided. But then I was thinking that I've never noticeably spit or dreuled while playing flute.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
I think the question should be: How does saliva affect one more than the other? With whistles, need it do so at all? The second question leads us to flutes, actually. Saliva is never an issue with what gets into flutes, or rather, it shouldn't be, because the mouth opening never makes contact with the instrument. The only time saliva was an issue for me was after I'd had some Buffalo wings and I was salivating so profusely that I couldn't play. The issue with flutes and saliva, then, is simply in how you are able to get saliva out of the way so as to play in comfort.Narzog wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 9:51 am Weird thought. Does playing flute create less spit than playing whistle? I was thinking that people spit when playing wind instruments, and some make more than others, so it shouldn't be avoided. But then I was thinking that I've never noticeably spit or dreuled while playing flute.
So what about whistles? I'm new to whistles, believe it or not, so I haven't had a lot of time to verify what I suspect, but at this point I'm of the opinion that if any saliva gets into the whistle head - and it could, because the mouthpiece is inserted directly between the lips - it's probably not as much as people seem to think. My belief is that most, if not all, of the moisture clogging whistle heads is actually condensate, no different than what beads up in the tube. From my own experience, it's entirely possible to play a whistle and not let any discernible amount of spit get into it. As Mr.Gumby said, you have to address the matter proactively. It's multitasking, really, but with enough practice you become able to manage saliva and keep it out of the way without even thinking about it, just as with flute, the only difference being the whistle's beak between the lips. Otherwise the process inside the mouth is the same.
When my whistles clog mid-tune, all I do is take a quick sipping-type in-breath - the suction clears out the windway - but I try to work it into the rhythmic structure so hopefully a listener won't notice.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
I was hoping to read if people thought the new audio clip in my last reply I was acceptable or not as this seems to be veering rather far off what I had originally asked about re flutes and clogging and saliva comparisons between instruments. I am interested in how to fix a specific issue which I have posted clips for critique and requesting help to know where best to place the pauses re phrasing and if the last pause length is going acceptable by other musician's standards.
Last edited by GeeseSoaring on Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
If you mean the gap in the melody: When you're performing solo or are the main act, no. That's something you want to avoid. The playing itself is pretty nice, though.GeeseSoaring wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:19 pm I was hoping to read if people thought the new audio clip I was acceptable or not.
See my last comment about how I deal with clogging on the fly. That way you have a lot more leeway in where you place such remedies. I hope that helps some.GeeseSoaring wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:19 pm I am interested in how to fix a specific issue which I have posted clips for critique and requesting help to know where best to place the pauses re phrasing and if the last pause length is going acceptable by other musician's standards.
But I'll try to be more specific: You can use pauses both to de-clog and as a rhythmic device. Here's a jig count: 123456 123456. You can do 1234(56) 123456, for example; the bit in parentheses is the pause. It's better yet if you can do it in one beat. The same goes for taking breaths. It's going to depend on the melody, of course. The important thing is that it fits and contributes to lift.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
That sounds like it would present more problems, in the form of a choking hazard if suddenly sucking in saliva which would just go into the windpipe rather than its proper place in the stomach.See my last comment about how I deal with clogging on the fly. That way you have a lot more leeway in where you place such remedies. I hope that helps some.
By the way look here at 1.03. She seems to do what I am suggesting, even doing 1 pause almost like a 'primer' and then a longer one which drops a beat. She is a very accomplished player and the pauses there sound decent to me?
Last edited by GeeseSoaring on Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:49 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
Not really. First of all, there's got to be some control to it, of course. But in general the condensate coming back into my mouth usually hits the palate, and that's it. Haven't choked yet.GeeseSoaring wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:40 pmThat sounds like it would present more problems, in the form of a choking hazard if suddenly sucking in saliva which would just go into the windpipe rather than its proper place in the stomach.See my last comment about how I deal with clogging on the fly. That way you have a lot more leeway in where you place such remedies. I hope that helps some.
EDIT: I just examined what I'm doing, and discovered I'm flexing the back of my tongue so that air gets through well enough for the job, but the airway's reasonably well protected. It seems I do this so automatically that I didn't even notice it until I broke it down. Anyway, it's a thought.
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
Sure, she's inserting her pauses in an artful way. Could be for breaths, de-clogging, or just on purpose for that matter, where the breath's a bonus. The main thing is that they're brief enough to work aesthetically. And where it's done counts. She nails it, and effortlessly.GeeseSoaring wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:40 pmBy the way look here at 1.03. She seems to do what I am suggesting, even doing 1 pause almost like a 'primer' and then a longer one which drops a beat. She is a very accomplished player and the pauses there sound decent to me?
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Re: Is it possible to drop two beats in jigs and reels and still sound good when playing solo?
Haha the buffalo wings story gave me a good laugh.Nanohedron wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:05 pm The only time saliva was an issue for me was after I'd had some Buffalo wings and I was salivating so profusely that I couldn't play.
My belief is that most, if not all, of the moisture clogging whistle heads is actually condensate, no different than what beads up in the tube. From my own experience, it's entirely possible to play a whistle and not let any discernible amount of spit get into it. As Mr.Gumby said, you have to address the matter proactively.
Once I saw some spit burst onto my whistle blade and I felt it splatter on my hands. I don't think that was condensation from my breath. but Yes a lot of moisture is just from breath. I think some players just haev the added spit like myself haha.
Her pauses were fine, but she only dropped a beat or two total. Not sure if it was needed to unclog or something or just intentional ornamentation. A lot of tunes can be repetitive so it can be cool to spice it up by playing repeat parts differently. If you could get your pauses to be this short and in the right spots, it would work. But the longer the pause, the fewer tunes it will work in. Short pauses and breaths fit in a lot more places than longer pauses.GeeseSoaring wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:40 pm That sounds like it would present more problems, in the form of a choking hazard if suddenly sucking in saliva which would just go into the windpipe rather than its proper place in the stomach.
By the way look here at 1.03. She seems to do what I am suggesting, even doing 1 pause almost like a 'primer' and then a longer one which drops a beat. She is a very accomplished player and the pauses there sound decent to me?
I missed your new sound clip at the end. But listening to it now the playing is good but the pause is still too long. If its possible to swallow twice as fast and only miss 2 beats it might work. But ideal pauses are usually only 1. Just my opinion, I'm not an irish music master by any stretch.GeeseSoaring wrote: ↑Fri Jun 03, 2022 2:19 pm I was hoping to read if people thought the new audio clip in my last reply I was acceptable or not as this seems to be veering rather far off what I had originally asked about re flutes and clogging and saliva comparisons between instruments. I am interested in how to fix a specific issue which I have posted clips for critique and requesting help to know where best to place the pauses re phrasing and if the last pause length is going acceptable by other musician's standards.
The reason I went off topic talking about flutes, is to me there's always more than one was to fix a problem. A lot of the times people will be so busy trying to solve a problem one way that they might not notice the other possible solutions. I read your problem as you want to play live but have to pause to swallow. To me not needing to swallow is a lot easier than trying to make swallowing fit on every tune. Flute is just one of the ways to accomplish this. You can pick whatever solution you want, I'm just giving alternatives you can consider.