Wood whistles

[Terry McGee]

I don't think that physical resonances in say the flute or whistle tube (or in the solid-wood electric bass body) are likely to add much to the sound.

Firstly, there isn't much scope for exciting these resonance. If you have a whistle with removable head, you can try. Hold the body between finger and thumb about one fifth of the way from one end. Now, using a pencil or something similar tap the middle of the longer bit or the open end of the short bit. You'll hear the clunk of impact, but you should then hear the resonance of the tube acting as a glockenspiel bar. If you don't hear the resonance, move your grip up and down a bit and keep trying.

Now that you are an experienced glock player, you can try holding it closer to the end and repeat the tapping. By changing the nodal point you should be able to bring out a few different partials.

So, yes, we can excite an audible resonance in a metal tube, but we have to hit it with something fairly hard. Try hitting it with your breath.

But secondly, our way of holding the instruments will dampen out those resonances. Hold it say fingering any of the left hand holes and try tapping it again. Thud. We've damped the resonance by holding it not at a nodal point, but near the middle.

But that's not to say that the body can't have effect in other ways, ways we could call subtractive, rather than additive. A good example would be raised grain inside a wooden flute or whistle that needs its bore repolished. Play it, it sounds a bit dull and sullen. Re-polish it, and it perks up and thanks you. (I artificially raise the grain of the bore of my flutes and polish it off before oiling. Saves the owner having to send it back later!)

If the walls of a wooden flute or whistle are made too thin, you lose energy to them. I have a very thin-walled bamboo low G whistle that falls into this category. It weighs 42 grams! Or if the wood is too light and/or open-grained. This was the lesson from my Pine Prattens experiment.

As the walls get thicker, you are adding little cylinders of extra tubing at each of the finger holes, which can mess with the tuning and the responsiveness. Increasing the hole diameters and/or undercutting can reduce this, but not eliminate it. Again, a subtractive effect.

I'd agree that using different metals on Boehm flute heads seems unlikely to alter anything, although some whistle makers claim some metals sound better than others. But given the hand-dampening, I think we can rule out tubular resonance!

I have made wooden heads for Boehm flutes and heard a significant difference. But again, it's more likely to be subtractive than additive - I can't see the wood vibrating audibly when jammed in the end of a silver tube and pushed up against the lip! And it might just come down to the fact that excavating the shape you want from the solid is just easier than fabricating it from sheet metal.

I do stoutly maintain we can easily perceive the difference between flutes (and probably whistles) made from timbers that are too light and/or coarse. When coming up with a new model of flute, I've used pretty reasonable timbers for the prototypes (no point in using rubbish, as that could be misleading!). EG Australian Acacias and Eucalypts around the 1.0 gms/cc. And they sound and play OK. But it's not till I then make a version in Blackwood or Gidgee or Mopane that I really hear and feel the full potential. And yet these are only 20% or so denser. But perhaps we're sensitive to that last 20%?

And I will admit to being puzzled why going on to Delrin at 1.4 (ie 40% denser, as well as being finer, smoother and totally impervious to air) doesn't seem to bring further benefits. Maybe we had already got there?

[Cyberknight]

That's immensely interesting! I stand corrected on the thickness point.

[Terry McGee]

And I should perhaps have added that subtractive isn't necessarily bad. If you are removing or reducing something we don't like, eg harshness or shrillness, then subtractive is good. But if its removing something that we regard as good, eg brightness or agility, then it's not good.

I'm still wondering about the merits of a mildly tapered bore, as opposed to the more usual choice of a cylindrical bore or a strongly tapered bore. Instinctively, I feel that the bold taper we might expect in a piccolo could be overkill in a whistle. The Thornton and the Carbony are the only two mildly tapered whistles I'm aware of, and I've had no experience of either. Keen to hear from anyone who has experience of these or other mildly tapered whistles.

[Cyberknight]

And I should perhaps have added that subtractive isn't necessarily bad. If you are removing or reducing something we don't like, eg harshness or shrillness, then subtractive is good. But if its removing something that we regard as good, eg brightness or agility, then it's not good.

I'm still wondering about the merits of a mildly tapered bore, as opposed to the more usual choice of a cylindrical bore or a strongly tapered bore. Instinctively, I feel that the bold taper we might expect in a piccolo could be overkill in a whistle. The Thornton and the Carbony are the only two mildly tapered whistles I'm aware of, and I've had no experience of either. Keen to hear from anyone who has experience of these or other mildly tapered whistles.

I often wonder what difference the taper makes. I really like Clarke Originals (very underrated whistles in my opinion), and they have a rather extreme taper. I've found that tapered whistles tend to be easier to play up high, but they also tend to be a bit flat in the lower octave and require some overblowing to compensate (Clarke Sweetones are the same way). Is this because of the taper, or is it just a peculiarity of Clarke whistles?

I do have two whistles that I believe have a slight taper, and they're my two favorites. One is a Susato Kildare and the other is a Morneaux. They both have amazing volume and flexibility. But in both of them, the taper is extremely slight.

[Terry McGee]

I often wonder what difference the taper makes. I really like Clarke Originals (very underrated whistles in my opinion), and they have a rather extreme taper. I've found that tapered whistles tend to be easier to play up high, but they also tend to be a bit flat in the lower octave and require some overblowing to compensate (Clarke Sweetones are the same way). Is this because of the taper, or is it just a peculiarity of Clarke whistles?

I've found the same, which again makes me wonder if the taper is too extreme. And perhaps runs for too much of the length of the whistle.

I do have two whistles that I believe have a slight taper, and they're my two favorites. One is a Susato Kildare and the other is a Morneaux. They both have amazing volume and flexibility. But in both of them, the taper is extremely slight.

Interesting. Any chance of investigating further? If you don't have calipers, we can get sneaky. For example, to answer the fundamental question is it tapered or not, tell us how far a Clarke tapered whistle will penetrate each end of the body of these whistles. Of course, that would be misleading if the top of the body has a socket for a tuning slide. In which case, see how far the tapered whistle will penetrate the head end of the slide.

And if you find there is a taper and we want to estimate it, again we can be sneaky. EG if a Generation D whistle body will penetrate 37mm into the top end, but a Generation F whistle will penetrate 125mm, we could use that to estimate the degree of taper. (Made-up figures, don't waste your time calculating that one!) Good to know the length of the whole tapered section. I've given examples in metric, but on parlez both languages ici, so Imperial will be fine. Especially on Charles' Coronation Day.

And if the bore appears to feature a flare at the end, you might be lucky enough to find a whistle or two that can identify at least one point along the flare.

You can't do any of that inside a Clarke whistle, because of the seam that runs up the inside!

[Cyberknight]

I often wonder what difference the taper makes. I really like Clarke Originals (very underrated whistles in my opinion), and they have a rather extreme taper. I've found that tapered whistles tend to be easier to play up high, but they also tend to be a bit flat in the lower octave and require some overblowing to compensate (Clarke Sweetones are the same way). Is this because of the taper, or is it just a peculiarity of Clarke whistles?

I've found the same, which again makes me wonder if the taper is too extreme. And perhaps runs for too much of the length of the whistle.

I do have two whistles that I believe have a slight taper, and they're my two favorites. One is a Susato Kildare and the other is a Morneaux. They both have amazing volume and flexibility. But in both of them, the taper is extremely slight.

Interesting. Any chance of investigating further? If you don't have calipers, we can get sneaky. For example, to answer the fundamental question is it tapered or not, tell us how far a Clarke tapered whistle will penetrate each end of the body of these whistles. Of course, that would be misleading if the top of the body has a socket for a tuning slide. In which case, see how far the tapered whistle will penetrate the head end of the slide.

And if you find there is a taper and we want to estimate it, again we can be sneaky. EG if a Generation D whistle body will penetrate 37mm into the top end, but a Generation F whistle will penetrate 125mm, we could use that to estimate the degree of taper. (Made-up figures, don't waste your time calculating that one!) Good to know the length of the whole tapered section. I've given examples in metric, but on parlez both languages ici, so Imperial will be fine. Especially on Charles' Coronation Day.

And if the bore appears to feature a flare at the end, you might be lucky enough to find a whistle or two that can identify at least one point along the flare.

You can't do any of that inside a Clarke whistle, because of the seam that runs up the inside!

I'll be sure to investigate this when I get home! I'm curious now, because I've always been told that Kildares have a "slight taper" but I can't notice much of one. I can notice a slight one on my Morneaux whistle though (I think).

[David Cooper]

If you're in a swimming pool and push away from the wall, you move off much faster than if you were to push off from a floating log that's free to move the opposite way. When air molecules hit heavy atoms in the wall of a flute/whistle, they'll retain more of their energy than it they hit light atoms, so it's possible that gold's a better material to use than carbonfibre + epoxy. However, it may only be the solidity that matters; the elimination of air pockets. If the atoms in the side of the wall can't be pushed significantly into the ones behind them they'll behave as if they are heavier. What's the lightest solid material that can be used for this, I wonder - one with no air pockets. That would be a good test. Graphite, perhaps. (Not carbonfibre, because most of the density in that comes from the epoxy which is more dense than water.)

[trill]

. . . Now, using a pencil or something similar tap the middle of the longer bit or the open end of the short bit. . .

Very nice test. Simple, direct, informative !

. . . ways we could call subtractive, rather than additive . . . rasied grain inside a wooden flute or whistle that needs its bore repolished. . .

Nice terminology. Much friendlier that "dissipative".

[Cyberknight]

Interesting. Any chance of investigating further? If you don't have calipers, we can get sneaky. For example, to answer the fundamental question is it tapered or not, tell us how far a Clarke tapered whistle will penetrate each end of the body of these whistles. Of course, that would be misleading if the top of the body has a socket for a tuning slide. In which case, see how far the tapered whistle will penetrate the head end of the slide.

I went ahead and checked my two "slightly tapered" whistles. My Morneaux is much more tapered than my Susato (which makes sense, because the Susato is way louder in the lower range but struggles a bit more to shift octaves). But neither of them are close to having a taper as extreme as the Clarke Sweetone.

I inserted the Sweetone into both sides of both whistles. It goes to about the second hole when inserted in the wider side of the Susato, and about to the first hole on the narrower side. It goes just past the second hole when inserted into the Morneaux, and it falls short of the first hole on the narrower side.

This means that the Clarke Sweetone tapers more between 2 or 3 if its holes than the Morneaux or the Susato do through their entire bodies! Talk about a slight taper.

[Terry McGee]

Certainly sounds like the Susato and Morneaux fall into the Mild Taper territory. Can you tell us the lengths of the tapered sections of the two whistles?

And yes, it reminds us how steep the tapers on the Clarke whistles are, with the newer Sweetone even steeper than the earlier Clarkes. I wonder how they arrived at those tapers. And why they persevere with them? Perhaps it's a case of "We've always done it that way, and people keep buying them, so they must be right."

[Cyberknight]

Certainly sounds like the Susato and Morneaux fall into the Mild Taper territory. Can you tell us the lengths of the tapered sections of the two whistles?

And yes, it reminds us how steep the tapers on the Clarke whistles are, with the newer Sweetone even steeper than the earlier Clarkes. I wonder how they arrived at those tapers. And why they persevere with them? Perhaps it's a case of "We've always done it that way, and people keep buying them, so they must be right."

As far as I can make out, they both taper for the entirety of their main body sections. This means that the Susato tapers for 22 cm and the Morneaux for 20 cm.

But the difficulty is that it's possible they both taper in the headjoint section, and I'm not really sure how you'd measure that.

[Terry McGee]

As far as I can make out, they both taper for the entirety of their main body sections. This means that the Susato tapers for 22 cm and the Morneaux for 20 cm.

So, definitely in the Mild Taper area.

But the difficulty is that it's possible they both taper in the headjoint section, and I'm not really sure how you'd measure that.

Probably unlikely. And tricky to measure without T-Gauges.

OK, so it seems that we have at least five categories of taper. Using the Rise over Length approach (Eg a 1mm increase in Diameter over 200mm is a taper of 1 in 200, we see:

Cylindrical (No taper, so infinite)
Hardly tapered, Susato, 338
Mild Tapers, Thornton (Martin), 159; Carbony, 151; Morneaux, 200.
Bold part-length tapers, some with flares, 40 to 46
Bold full length tapers, 35 to 37

(Keep in mind with this measure, the larger the number, the more gentle the taper. And that my data is pretty rough, so don't bank on it!)

It's a big field!

[Cyberknight]

As far as I can make out, they both taper for the entirety of their main body sections. This means that the Susato tapers for 22 cm and the Morneaux for 20 cm.

So, definitely in the Mild Taper area.

But the difficulty is that it's possible they both taper in the headjoint section, and I'm not really sure how you'd measure that.

Probably unlikely. And tricky to measure without T-Gauges.

OK, so it seems that we have at least five categories of taper. Using the Rise over Length approach (Eg a 1mm increase in Diameter over 200mm is a taper of 1 in 200, we see:

Cylindrical (No taper, so infinite)
Hardly tapered, Susato, 338
Mild Tapers, Thornton (Martin), 159; Carbony, 151; Morneaux, 200.
Bold part-length tapers, some with flares, 40 to 46
Bold full length tapers, 35 to 37

(Keep in mind with this measure, the larger the number, the more gentle the taper. And that my data is pretty rough, so don't bank on it!)

It's a big field!

I often wonder why no one makes any conical bore whistles - i.e., whistles that start narrow and get wider. I'd think that would increase volume, wouldn't it?

[RoberTunes]

[/quote]
I often wonder why no one makes any conical bore whistles - i.e., whistles that start narrow and get wider. I'd think that would increase volume, wouldn't it?
[/quote]

A whistle with a widening chamber, as you describe, I'll have to let others discuss, that's beyond me. It would have it's own varied response to the loudness and response
of the various ranges of notes (high to low), depending on the degree of conical flaring as a % away from its average bore diameter. I've seen one telescoping whistle
where the bore changed with each moving part, but it was metal and the difference in flare would be minimal, maybe 1mm per section, which would affect tonal balance
and response to some degree. To make the tube wider in the lower half may help boost volume, but so does making the tone holes bigger and making the window
about as wide as the diameter of the bore (some whistles where the start of the window-tube transition is square in shape, allows for maximizing window width, boosting
volume, and allowing customizing of window/windway and blade shapes to find difference performance options).

I don't know what it would look like, but a multi-chamber whistle could solve the soprano/alto or alto/low combination well, providing a wider range of
very good instrument response, in a very compact physical structure. Ocarinas are doing something like that with 2 and 3 chamber models that provide a wide range
of notes, yet not being much bigger in size than a regular single-chamber instrument. If a properly featured whistle mouthpiece could be attached to an
instrument that where you place your fingers to choose which tube you're using, with the associated windway in use, whistles could overcome some
limitations of range and response. I've seen some double-tube whistles and traditional simple flutes double up, but one tube is simply another instrument attached, usually serving as a drone.
That's not what I mean. I'm just wondering if a double or triple-chamber whistle could be made. I have heard some High F and High G whistle that have a very appealing tone
in the higher notes, yet the lower notes sound nice, but don't have the same magic. A flared tube or multi-chamber whistle could expand the range of a whistle's
maximum quality response before the notes get raspy or lose control.

I too would like to see how that idea may help. Examples needed. It's perhaps similar in idea in how a cornet gradually widens along the length of the tube, vs how
a standard trumpet stays uniform in tube width until after the last valve, where widening is used for volume, projection and tone coloring but has much less of a pitch influence
after that point along the length of it all. A cornet's tone is more rounded and balanced than a trumpet, but once again, the design of the mouthpiece still has a major
influence on how a trumpet or cornet or flugelhorn tone sounds. Wide-throated mouthpieces can make a trumpet sound close to a cornet, and a narrow-throat mouthpiece
can make a flugelhorn sound much closer to a cornet or mellowed out trumpet. There is a huge marketplace supply of a various brass instrument mouthpiece designs,
because of this effect.

Maybe where this is really going, is to attach brass mouthpieces to whistles, so everyone can be annoyed.

[Terry McGee]

I often wonder why no one makes any conical bore whistles - i.e., whistles that start narrow and get wider. I'd think that would increase volume, wouldn't it?

This it the question that spurred Boehm into developing his "cylindrical flute". He notes in his writing that he mused why the flute was the only woodwind blown at the large diameter end. And sure enough he found that a small bore reduction at the blowing end (~2mm) produced the same tuning improvements as the big reduction at the other end used in our conical flutes (~8mm). And doesn't give that mournful dark shading that the conical flute gives. Hang on, I quite like that mournful dark shading!

Now, numerous commentators have noted that a small reduction in diameter at the blowing end of an otherwise cylindrical whistle bore can improve the intonation, which strikes me as a similar approach as Boehm's. Try this simple experiment. Blow the B-b octave on your cylindrical D whistle. Now, drop a 2 to 3" nail head first down the bore from the foot, so that its head rests against the window end of the stopper. Play the B-b octave again. Easier? Sweeter? Worked for me. Try a smaller or bigger nail, or two smaller nails side by side. Results may of course depend on the whistle, so try another!

I haven't investigated the tuning and tonal ramifications elsewhere of this intrusion. And you'd need to check the legality of taking a loaded blow-gun to a session in your state....