Best way to fix crack in fipple head

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maiingan
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I have an Oak high D, Generation Bb, Dixon Alto A, Tilbury Low G, Humphrey low F and a Howard low D.
Location: Des Moines, Iowa

Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by maiingan »

Hi;
I have a Generation Bb that has some fine cracks. It's still playable. I'd like to fix it before it get worse. I've read about filling cracks with super glue. My main question is do you do this with the head on or off the barrel? I don't know if crack goes all the way through. If some glue got through wouldn't you run the risk of gluing head to barrel? If you do it separately will any glue that might leak through making it harder to fit head back on barrel?
Any suggestions from those who have done this?
I thought of getting a tweaked Jerry Freeman head but he doesn't sell just replacement heads.
Stay safe and hopefully healthy;

Patti
et succendam sibilus (blow the whistle) :thumbsup:
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Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by Average Whistler »

Superglue (Cyanoacrylate, like Krazy Glue) does not adhere well to plastics and may act only as a filler without actually bonding the two sides of the crack. That means the crack can continue to expand and contract with heat (like the kind provided by a player's breath) and likely extend the crack's length and depth until it becomes a repair job and not merely a fill-in. My own experience trying to fix plastic heads that have cracked has borne out the science behind how superglues work (or don't work).

The best fill and bond comes from a two-part epoxy glue. They can be messy and difficult to work with, but they do provide a strong bond. I suggest JB Weld, but there are others that are effective. Stay away from the 5-minute dollar-store epoxies. Something that sets up in 15 minutes or longer will provide a stronger bond. Always repair the head off the tube, wear gloves and clean up excess immediately.

Good luck! A good Generation is a thing to preserve!
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maiingan
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I have an Oak high D, Generation Bb, Dixon Alto A, Tilbury Low G, Humphrey low F and a Howard low D.
Location: Des Moines, Iowa

Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by maiingan »

Average Whistler wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:46 am Superglue (Cyanoacrylate, like Krazy Glue) does not adhere well to plastics and may act only as a filler without actually bonding the two sides of the crack. That means the crack can continue to expand and contract with heat (like the kind provided by a player's breath) and likely extend the crack's length and depth until it becomes a repair job and not merely a fill-in. My own experience trying to fix plastic heads that have cracked has borne out the science behind how superglues work (or don't work).

The best fill and bond comes from a two-part epoxy glue. They can be messy and difficult to work with, but they do provide a strong bond. I suggest JB Weld, but there are others that are effective. Stay away from the 5-minute dollar-store epoxies. Something that sets up in 15 minutes or longer will provide a stronger bond. Always repair the head off the tube, wear gloves and clean up excess immediately.

Good luck! A good Generation is a thing to preserve!
Do you mend cracks with fipple (head) on or off the barrel?
Stay safe and hopefully healthy;

Patti
et succendam sibilus (blow the whistle) :thumbsup:
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Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by Polara Pat »

I used fly tying thread and topped the whole thing in hard as Nails clear nail polish. Mine are now bulletproof
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Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by Narzog »

The question is, how safe are glues/epoxy's for putting in your mouth? People usually don't think of this but they are really fishy materials.

There are 'non toxic once cured" epoxy resins, and this is what you would want to use to seal any cracks. They usually bond better than glue, and are usually incredibly strong. Once I epoxied two pipes together, and when I realized I needed to take it off I broke the pipe trying to get it off with pliers.

The issue is these epoxy resins are really fishy. Super toxic when not cured. Debatably safe when cured. They can be rated as 'food safe' and such but terms liek that are very variable, because the term food safe is based on the use, dry / wet food, etc. Its never really specific. Safe to put a plate on is not the same as safe to put soup in. Etc.

Also big note, I'm incredibly paranoid about these things. I didn't like using PVC to make whistles because I was worried I could over heat it with power tools and it would become toxic, because the PVC melting point is so low. So something I don't think is safe, doesnt mean its not actually safe.

If you want a generally most likely safe, really strong and affordable epoxy, this is what I have
https://www.amazon.com/PC-Products-7014 ... 008DZ19WC/

Also defiantly take the head off to fix any cracks, unless you want it permanently stuck to the tube. If it did leak in to the tube area you may need to do minor sanding to get it back on, but you really don't need to use a ton of this stuff. Also a note for pretty much all epoxies, sand outside and wear a mask.

If I just made this sound like its not worth the effort, consider buying a cheap gen and trying to self tweak it, or message jerry and ask if you can buy just a head. But note, the head piece is most of the cost in whistles. If he uses the stock Gen tubes, thats just a fraction of the cost in buying a new one.
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maiingan
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I have an Oak high D, Generation Bb, Dixon Alto A, Tilbury Low G, Humphrey low F and a Howard low D.
Location: Des Moines, Iowa

Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by maiingan »

Polara Pat wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:54 pm I used fly tying thread and topped the whole thing in hard as Nails clear nail polish. Mine are now bulletproof
Could you use dental floss? How do you get it tight enough?
Stay safe and hopefully healthy;

Patti
et succendam sibilus (blow the whistle) :thumbsup:
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maiingan
Posts: 101
Joined: Sat May 25, 2019 8:57 am
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Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Hi;
I have an Oak high D, Generation Bb, Dixon Alto A, Tilbury Low G, Humphrey low F and a Howard low D.
Location: Des Moines, Iowa

Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by maiingan »

Narzog wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 3:27 pm The question is, how safe are glues/epoxy's for putting in your mouth? People usually don't think of this but they are really fishy materials.

There are 'non toxic once cured" epoxy resins, and this is what you would want to use to seal any cracks. They usually bond better than glue, and are usually incredibly strong. Once I epoxied two pipes together, and when I realized I needed to take it off I broke the pipe trying to get it off with pliers.

The issue is these epoxy resins are really fishy. Super toxic when not cured. Debatably safe when cured. They can be rated as 'food safe' and such but terms liek that are very variable, because the term food safe is based on the use, dry / wet food, etc. Its never really specific. Safe to put a plate on is not the same as safe to put soup in. Etc.

Also big note, I'm incredibly paranoid about these things. I didn't like using PVC to make whistles because I was worried I could over heat it with power tools and it would become toxic, because the PVC melting point is so low. So something I don't think is safe, doesnt mean its not actually safe.

If you want a generally most likely safe, really strong and affordable epoxy, this is what I have
https://www.amazon.com/PC-Products-7014 ... 008DZ19WC/

Also defiantly take the head off to fix any cracks, unless you want it permanently stuck to the tube. If it did leak in to the tube area you may need to do minor sanding to get it back on, but you really don't need to use a ton of this stuff. Also a note for pretty much all epoxies, sand outside and wear a mask.

If I just made this sound like its not worth the effort, consider buying a cheap gen and trying to self tweak it, or message jerry and ask if you can buy just a head. But note, the head piece is most of the cost in whistles. If he uses the stock Gen tubes, thats just a fraction of the cost in buying a new one.
Jerry doesn't sell just heads, I checked. Thanks for letting me know about doing it outside with head off. My hairline cracks are below the wind way so that is good. I may be ok with any type of epoxy then.
Stay safe and hopefully healthy;

Patti
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Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by Narzog »

maiingan wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:53 pm Jerry doesn't sell just heads, I checked. Thanks for letting me know about doing it outside with head off. My hairline cracks are below the wind way so that is good. I may be ok with any type of epoxy then.
Ya if the cracks are not anywhere you put your mouth, I'd dub it pretty safe. I'd still use non toxic when cured because why not, its only $4, but you definitely don't need to worry about any toxicity as much. Other epoxy use recommendations, your supposed to do it in a well ventilated area, and don't get it on your hands. You can wash it off though, but uncured epoxy is always toxic. I don't worry so much about the ventilation though, because I use such small amounts of the stuff. Most epoxy tubes like the one I linked you will see 2 tubes. When you push the stuff out it pushes out both tubes in similar amounts. And then you just mix it up well. I just use a piece of cardboard with packing tape on it so its a smooth water tight surface to mix on. And I mix it with like a paper clip. I then use the paper clip to apply it to anywhere I want. It hardens pretty fast, but I'd give it 24h before sanding or anything. I'm making it sound harder than it is. Its very easy to use in reality lol.
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Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by Polara Pat »

maiingan wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:50 pm
Polara Pat wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:54 pm I used fly tying thread and topped the whole thing in hard as Nails clear nail polish. Mine are now bulletproof
Could you use dental floss? How do you get it tight enough?
I gently viced the mouth piece so it wouldn't move around and my thread is on a bobbin so I can tie it off and whip tight loops over and over. Dental floss might work but would also build up really fast.
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Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by Average Whistler »

Fly tying line, nylon thread, and fiberglass cloth all work the same way: to strengthen the epoxy bond. Generally you use them when trying to laminate across a crack rather than place the epoxy within the crack to bond the two sides directly. I used this technique to fix a bad crack on my beloved Clare where the head fit over the tube and the tension pulled the crack apart even after gluing. It looks like hell but the repair worked.
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Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by pancelticpiper »

Here you can see three Generations which have been treated various ways.

Leftmost is a Jerry Freeman red Generation Bb head (on a self-made A body) which he has elegantly bound with red thread.

Second left is a red Generation Bb head which I've done extreme binding on due to sawing it in half through the window.

To centre a red Generation C which I've bound with thick black thread which I then soaked in superglue. The socket is rock-hard and can't split.

Image

Here all these can be heard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-fQhvleWq8&t=276s
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Polara Pat
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Tell us something.: In an effort to ease from lurker to forum member; I'm hoping that this elite gang of whistlers will help this very green player to advance to the next stage. My current stage is slightly below novice and is only permitted in the garage like the dog I am. Oh yah, not a robot.

Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by Polara Pat »

My repairs look similar to Panceltic Piper's, but i finished with a hard glaze.
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maiingan
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I have an Oak high D, Generation Bb, Dixon Alto A, Tilbury Low G, Humphrey low F and a Howard low D.
Location: Des Moines, Iowa

Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by maiingan »

pancelticpiper wrote: Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:22 am Here you can see three Generations which have been treated various ways.

Leftmost is a Jerry Freeman red Generation Bb head (on a self-made A body) which he has elegantly bound with red thread.

Second left is a red Generation Bb head which I've done extreme binding on due to sawing it in half through the window.

To centre a red Generation C which I've bound with thick black thread which I then soaked in superglue. The socket is rock-hard and can't split.

Hi Richard;
Did you do any gluing before adding string? How did you get string tight, just whipping?
Stay safe and hopefully healthy;

Patti
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maiingan
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Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Hi;
I have an Oak high D, Generation Bb, Dixon Alto A, Tilbury Low G, Humphrey low F and a Howard low D.
Location: Des Moines, Iowa

Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by maiingan »

Polara Pat wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:10 pm My repairs look similar to Panceltic Piper's, but i finished with a hard glaze.
What did you use for a glaze?
Stay safe and hopefully healthy;

Patti
et succendam sibilus (blow the whistle) :thumbsup:
Polara Pat
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Tell us something.: In an effort to ease from lurker to forum member; I'm hoping that this elite gang of whistlers will help this very green player to advance to the next stage. My current stage is slightly below novice and is only permitted in the garage like the dog I am. Oh yah, not a robot.

Re: Best way to fix crack in fipple head

Post by Polara Pat »

maiingan wrote: Thu Aug 26, 2021 9:34 am
Polara Pat wrote: Mon Aug 23, 2021 8:10 pm My repairs look similar to Panceltic Piper's, but i finished with a hard glaze.
What did you use for a glaze?
It sounds a bit lame but it's an old fly tying trick to use clear nail polish called "hard as nails" Toxic sh*t but it works well.
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