Narrow bore? Why?

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CPA
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Narrow bore? Why?

Post by CPA »

Why choose a narrow bore whistle? To dampen the dynamics? For what? Thanks!
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by jimhanks »

For a softer high end and generally mellower tone overall - at the expense of a less bold low end
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by CPA »

In short, a tone less rich in harmonic frequencies, and therefore more similar to that of a transverse flute, rather than similar to that of a pan flute?
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by fiddlerwill »

Slightly less volume and slightly different finger hole positioning and less air requirements .
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by Peter Duggan »

Smoother transitions between registers, especially when slurred.
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by Tunborough »

Mostly, these:
Peter Duggan wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:13 am Smoother transitions between registers, especially when slurred.
jimhanks wrote: Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:27 pm For a softer high end and generally mellower tone overall - at the expense of a less bold low end
I would say more, rather than less, energy in the higher harmonics.

Also, the side benefit of smaller finger holes overall, which could make for crisper articulations.
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by CPA »

So, in practice, it is a musical instrument very suitable for the recording room and in search of very refined, pure, balanced and clear timbres. Is that what you are telling me?
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by Narzog »

CPA wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:31 am So, in practice, it is a musical instrument very suitable for the recording room and in search of very refined, pure, balanced and clear timbres. Is that what you are telling me?
Pure tone comes down to the mouthpiece design. you could make a chiffy small bore whistle. Burkes are larger than normal bores and are the purest tone.

But generally small bore are quieter, lower air, usually weaker low end, usually easier high end. But theres a lot of factors that change how things work, bore is just one of them.
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by stiofan »

I have a Goldie narrow bore tenor D. It's a phenomenal whistle, unlike anything I've played before. Easy, sweet upper end in the second octave, and a decent bell tone, considering its bore size. An exceptionally smooth player between octaves. There's been a fair amount of discussion on narrow bore whistles here in the past, so you might do a search on this forum and see if it illuminates any of your questions, particularly one where Calum Stewart explains some of the tonal qualities in his NB Goldie.
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by bigsciota »

Just a quick point that I think is important to make: the concept of a "narrow bore" generally only exists in relation to other whistle makers make, and the others are usually called a "session" or "wide" bore. In fact, most "narrow bore" whistles I've come across have had a similar bore width to the standard Generation, Feadog, Sindt, Killarney, etc. whistles. I am sure that they exist, but I have yet to come across a whistle with a significantly narrower bore than that. So, the question might be more "why *not* a wide bore?" than "why a narrow bore?" since the "narrow" bore of many whistle makers is the "standard bore" of others.
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by CPA »

bigsciota wrote: Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:22 pm Just a quick point that I think is important to make: the concept of a "narrow bore" generally only exists in relation to other whistle makers make, and the others are usually called a "session" or "wide" bore. In fact, most "narrow bore" whistles I've come across have had a similar bore width to the standard Generation, Feadog, Sindt, Killarney, etc. whistles. I am sure that they exist, but I have yet to come across a whistle with a significantly narrower bore than that. So, the question might be more "why *not* a wide bore?" than "why a narrow bore?" since the "narrow" bore of many whistle makers is the "standard bore" of others.
If I am not mistaken, English speakers, when a note in the high register of a tin whistle does not stay well in tune for a while but suddenly "breaks", they say that it squeaks. This sound accident can be caused either by the inexperience of the musician or by objective physical limitations of the instrument. Using two different Tin Whislte high Ds, a Waltons and a Generation, on the first it is easier, for me, to play the low octave and the high one is more difficult, vice versa on the second one. In fact, the second tin whistle has a narrower bore than the first. But maybe there are also other physical factors (unknown to me) if, just to give an example, I hear Eriko Yajima's burke singing like a nightingale at the higher frequencies? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKv5At1njsU
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by CPA »

stiofan wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:31 pm I have a Goldie narrow bore tenor D. It's a phenomenal whistle, unlike anything I've played before. Easy, sweet upper end in the second octave, and a decent bell tone, considering its bore size. An exceptionally smooth player between octaves. There's been a fair amount of discussion on narrow bore whistles here in the past, so you might do a search on this forum and see if it illuminates any of your questions, particularly one where Calum Stewart explains some of the tonal qualities in his NB Goldie.
Ok, I saw:
"They are very particular to voice and time consuming to make, hence why there are not more of them around." (OK)
"... they are a really interesting alternative to the classic low D sound." (OK)
"But voicing heads for the narrow bore D can be a dangerous thing Colin explained to me, as you need to push the head right to the edge, to get the unique sound from the narrow bore." (Sorry... What??? Up to the edge? Which edge? Up? Down? Lateral? From what point? Is the head or the labium window or the junction point for pitch described? Sorry, I can't understand the meaning of the sentence.)
"... a wee bit quieter that a regular low D Goldie instrument" (OK)
"I find the air expenditure / playability / phrasing really intuitive." (Intuitive? Meaning what?)
"...it is very responsive" (OK)
"... expressive in slower tunes without being that cliché sound." (cliché sound = too much traditional "rough" folk sound? So something delicate that comes close to the sound of the classical traverse flute?)
"It's sweet sounding and has some really interesting higher frequency overtones." (?)
Do you have something to specify or to add?
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by Narzog »

Bore is just one part of the whistle. The head has several dimensions also that can effect the same things. So makers will mix and match to try and find the right balance. windway width raises volume. Height makes it more breathy, lowers back pressure and raises air use. Longer window (the area where the air exist to the lip) will make it take more push to hit second octave, and usually strengthens lower octave because it can take more push. Block bevel amount can have a similar effect. There's more but these are some of the main things.

My point is there no specific trait smaller bore whistle will always have. Because you could make a hard blowing strong low end small bore whistle. It just might not be worth the other trade offs (which is why makers dont make them that way). but generally speaking, small bores will have a lot of the traits people have already mentioned in this thread. Just keep in mind theres more to it than bore.
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by CPA »

Narzog wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:29 pm
CPA wrote: Sat Aug 14, 2021 8:31 am So, in practice, it is a musical instrument very suitable for the recording room and in search of very refined, pure, balanced and clear timbres. Is that what you are telling me?
Pure tone comes down to the mouthpiece design. you could make a chiffy small bore whistle. Burkes are larger than normal bores and are the purest tone.

But generally small bore are quieter, lower air, usually weaker low end, usually easier high end. But theres a lot of factors that change how things work, bore is just one of them.
I have read some interesting observations by Pietro Sopranzi in this regard. The farther the jet of air coming out of the windway is from the blade of the labium, the more the notes of the low register sound good, but this distance makes the notes of the high register feeble and uncertain and dirties the sound with the noise of the breath. It also requires more pressure. If this distance decreases, however, the high register works much better but the low one becomes impractical because the breath pressure would be too low. There is also an optimization of the width of the labium blade in relation to the bore. The text also continues talking about the tonal holes with references to their diameters, to their possible displacements from the inside, etc. Very interesting.
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Re: Narrow bore? Why?

Post by hans »

CPA wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 4:02 pm
I have read some interesting observations by Pietro Sopranzi in this regard. The farther the jet of air coming out of the windway is from the blade of the labium, the more the notes of the low register sound good, but this distance makes the notes of the high register feeble and uncertain and dirties the sound with the noise of the breath. It also requires more pressure. If this distance decreases, however, the high register works much better but the low one becomes impractical because the breath pressure would be too low. There is also an optimization of the width of the labium blade in relation to the bore. The text also continues talking about the tonal holes with references to their diameters, to their possible displacements from the inside, etc. Very interesting.
I agree. Could you please provide me with a source link to Pietro Sopranizi's observations? Would love to read what he said.
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