Set Building

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Polara Pat
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Set Building

Post by Polara Pat »

Ok go easy on me here, I'm pretty new to putting set lists together and my repertoire, if you can call it that is pretty small. That being said, I've been having a bit of fun making sets but could always use some sound advice from the mob. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here, so for starters I'm not mixing types of tunes; although I know it can work. Groups of three has been my personal guideline so far and trying to make the third tune roll smoothly back into the first is also a bonus.

Any other hot tips or favourite sets?
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pancelticpiper
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Re: Set Building

Post by pancelticpiper »

Seems to me that there are two main musically-based approaches. I'm talking here about sets of like tunes, a set of three jigs for example.

(I say that because people sometimes put sets together based on non-musical factors, such as a set of tunes that all have "hag" in the name etc. while many other sets seem to be put together at random.)

Regarding musical factors, I think the two main approaches are

1) Melodic-based: the last notes of one tune flow smoothly into the first notes of the the next tune.

2) Key-based: when you switch from one tune to the next there's an effective change in keys. The melodies need not flow into one another, indeed you can have a full stop between the tunes, which can make the key change sound even better.

With #1, to work best it requires having a large number of tunes to draw from, and spending much time trying various transitions. There have been instances when I've had two tunes that flowed beautifully, but have been stumped coming up with a third tune to complete the set. In one case I ended up composing the last tune! I knew how the last tune needed to start and I couldn't find a preexisting tune that filled the bill.

With #2 the normal music world has long known that certain key changes sound effective to most people. It's why hundreds of rock and pop hits over the last 60 years have used the same four-chord sequence (I > V > vi > IV).

One simple change, so effective that it's become practically required in some genres, is going up a step. Thus Matt Molloy plays two reels in G Major then concludes the set by going up a step to A minor.

With Irish reel sets in particular I've found that D Major > e minor > G Major sounds good practically no matter which tunes you plug into it. It has the rising tonic thing.

In Scottish trad sets consisting of different tune-types are more common than sets consisting of the same tune-type, the most common being

March > Strathspey > Reel

which has been the main format for Scottish music for a long time. Here's a set

Slow Air > March > Strathspeys > Reels https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FN1tvucvU4

They also do things like

Slow Air > Jigs

Hornpipe > Jig

etc.
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kenny
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Re: Set Building

Post by kenny »

The 2 factors mentioned by Richard above are what matters. Here are 2 examples - it might be helpful if people were maybe to post their favourite examples.

3 reel set from the Bothy Band [ never recorded as such ] :
https://youtu.be/r54K97kprdY

3 Scottish pipe jigs I used to play some years back. I was always very pleased with the key changes, which worked well for me , anyway :
https://youtu.be/AZ6QUJw7iyQ

The classic set, in terms of Irish traditional music of course would be Coleman's "Tarbolton / Longford Collector / Sailor's Bonnet" set.
https://youtu.be/_V7ji57f0Is

A matter of trial and error, really - see what works for you personally.

You asked for "favourite sets" - here are a few I've put together over the years.

"Kiss The Maid Behind The Barrel / Mayor Harrison's Fedora / Spike Island Lasses"
"The Man Of Aran / Jack Maguire's / The Crib Of Perches"
"The Streamstown Jig / The Whistling Postman / Up And About In The Morning"
"Fred Finn's / Tom Ward's Downfall / The Piper's Despair / Up Against The Buchalawns"
"Bill Collins' / Willie Coleman's / The Cliffs Of Mohir"
"There's fast music and there's lively music. People don't always know the difference"
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pancelticpiper
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Re: Set Building

Post by pancelticpiper »

Here's a set our Pipe Band used to play, I think it's very effective set-building within the limited notes the Highland pipes can play.

https://thesession.org/members/36889/sets/30663

If you click "play audio" (which is a good way to listen to the set as a whole) keep in mind that the Strathspeys will play too fast, which spoils the effect of going Strathspey>Reel.

The first Strathspey is in A Major (the note G doesn't appear in the tune, making the tune sound Major to the ear) so when the first G is heard in the second Strathspey the effect is of going Major>Mixolydian. The appearance of the first G natural is quite effective.

### > ## (A Major > A Mixolydian)

In the reels it goes the other way, the first reel being in a gap mode that feels minor to the listener (though in fact the note C doesn't appear) so when the second reel starts on a big fat C# it's dramatic to the listener. The second reel, like the first Strathspey, lacks the note G and feels like A Major to the listener, so the reels feel

## > ### (a dorian > A Major)

and the set as a whole has the classic ABA structure (well ABBA actually)

### > ## > ## > ###
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Polara Pat
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Re: Set Building

Post by Polara Pat »

awww this is all really good stuff!! A tiny bit tech for me but I'm trying to take it all in. Here's a couple sets that we're working on at the moment.

Out on the Ocean>Tripping Up The Stairs>My Darling Asleep for jigs

Cooley's>Wise Maid>Silver Spear for reels. Pretty classic set there
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pancelticpiper
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Re: Set Building

Post by pancelticpiper »

Polara Pat wrote: Out on the Ocean>Tripping Up The Stairs>My Darling Asleep


For that set, it depends on what key you play Out On The Ocean in, some people play it in D, others in G.

If Out On The Ocean is in D the set is D Major>D Major>D Major thus having no changes.

If Out On The Ocean is in G then you have G Major>D Major>D Major giving it a bit of variety. D is the dominant of G.

That's the harmonic stuff. About melodically flowing from one tune to the next, I don't hear that happening in Out On The Ocean in G into Tripping Upstairs in D.

About the transition from Tripping Up the Stairs in D to My Darling Asleep in D, the final notes of Tripping Up the Stairs and the first notes of My Darling Asleep are the same (F#, E, and D in the 2nd octave) so there's not much in the way of contrast. Those two tunes have a similar feel overall to me.

To experiment with a transition that has harmonic and melodic contrasts try playing Out On The Ocean in G (assuming that's the key you play it in) into The Mooncoin Jig. True thatOut On The Ocean doesn't have the note C natural but it's implied, so when you hit the first note of Mooncoin, C#, it's pretty dramatic and catchy. And the tonic is rising a step, from G to A.

Another thing to try is going from D Major up to A minor/dorian, where the first appearance of C natural sounds cool.

Play either My Darling Asleep or Tripping Up The Stairs into Condon's Frolics, not only is the first note high E, one note higher than the concluding note of those D tunes, but it's quickly followed by a C natural, whereas those D Major tunes had loads of C sharps. The key change is D Major>a minor/dorian.
Polara Pat wrote: Cooley's>Wise Maid>Silver Spear
There you have

e minor>D Major>D Major.

Personally I would want to have the tonal centre rise rather than fall, and have more variety in the set, but that's just me.
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Mr.Gumby
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Re: Set Building

Post by Mr.Gumby »

There you have

e minor>D Major>D Major.

Personally I would want to have the tonal centre rise rather than fall, and have more variety in the set, but that's just me.
You're obviously in nitpicky mode in this post Richard but really, Cooley's into the Wise Maid is such a classic set you would be hard pressed to many musicians, especially accordion players, who wouldn't instinctively go into the second one if nothing else was agreed before had,. Perhaps it is just you but really, it was good for Joe Cooley and that should tell us something.

But when you think about it again and loo beyond theissue you have with the key change from Edor/Em to D : Cooley's resolves on E while the Wise Maid throws the long F at you so the set dos exactly what you are looking for, going a step up.

it depends on what key you play Out On The Ocean in, some people play it in D, others in G.

And a fair few would play it in A. :P
It was a quick wearing gimmick at some point to take the tune through all three keys.
Condon's Frolics, not only is the first note high E,
Unless you start it on B ofcourse, depending on your choice of key again Another example of either having the D-Edor change or relying on your ending on d' and moving to a tune starting the step up.
:D

Anyhow, it is worth listening to (some) ceili bands, some of them have very effective changes in their sets, some of the old Kilfenora's sets are classics and the Castle has it's moments as well.
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Re: Set Building

Post by tstermitz »

pancelticpiper wrote: With Irish reel sets in particular I've found that D Major > e minor > G Major sounds good practically no matter which tunes you plug into it. It has the rising tonic thing.
These changes also have the Major-minor-Major thing going on. E-Dorian is the "relative-Dorian" to the Key of D, and E-Minor is the relative natural minor to the key of G.

These almost always sound good due to sharing notes within the keys, as well as offering an emotional transition.
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Re: Set Building

Post by pancelticpiper »

Mr.Gumby wrote:
You're obviously in nitpicky mode in this post Richard but really, Cooley's into the Wise Maid is such a classic set...
To continue being nitpicky :) Pat did specifically ask about putting new sets together. (There are threads about classic tune-sets, if somebody wants to look at those.)

I think that a set being an old classic has a bit of the "that's the way it's always been done" justification.

The difficulty lies in figuring out why it became a classic set.

Is there anything musical going on in the transitions? If so, the specific principle involved could be taken from the old classic set and used in the creation of a new set.

If, on inspection, no musical principle can be detected, then there's nothing to be learned from analysing that particular old set, and the continued existence of the set has to be attributed to other factors.

These could be as simple as the popularity of the tunes themselves. You have three popular tunes, you heard somebody playing them as a set, why not play them that way?

Or it could be the popularity of the musicians or band or recording or album. Everyone's heard so-and-so play those tunes together, let's do it too!
Mr.Gumby wrote: Cooley's resolves on E while the Wise Maid throws the long F# at you so the set dos exactly what you are looking for, going a step up.
Yes indeed! The note goes one step up, even though the key goes one step down.

I would posit that it's even more effective if both the note and the key go up. With the Highland pipes you have a basso ostinato thing going on with the drones, so that old tunes in the key of G Lydian, played over the A drones, create tremendous tension.

This tension is released when the following tune is in A, particularly if the first note is a big fat C#, which heard over the A drone is a powerful Major 3rd. To add yet another factor, that of idiom, the tension of the Strathspey being released when the player goes into a Reel, and you get one of the great Scottish piping tune-changes, the Strathspey Cameronian Rant into the reel Pretty Marion.

I'm not the only one looking to go up a step. The person who put together Cooleys>Wise Maid (was it Cooley himself?), Matt Molloy, The Bothy Band, and hundreds of trad musicians, rock and pop musicians, film composers, church music people, and others have been doing that for a long, long time. I didn't invent it, just bring it to Pat's attention.
Mr.Gumby wrote: It was a quick-wearing gimmick at some point to take the tune through all three keys.
Yes I was at a session where they played Foxhunters Reel in G, A, B minor, C Major, then in D Major. Pretty cool to be able to knock out the tune in new keys on the fly!
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Re: Set Building

Post by Polara Pat »

OK I'm currently working on a trio of hornpipes and The Cork into Boys of Bluehill seem to work great but my third is Murphy's and I'm not entirely sold. Anyone have a suggestion for me to try with the first two?
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Re: Set Building

Post by kenny »

Maybe not much help to you - and I don't exactly know why - but I would never play a set of 3 hornpipes. Usually played in pairs, I honestly cannot think of any recording of a musician playing a set of 3 hornpipes, although I'm sure they must exist somewhere. My advice - leave it at 2.
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Re: Set Building

Post by Polara Pat »

kenny wrote:Maybe not much help to you - and I don't exactly know why - but I would never play a set of 3 hornpipes. Usually played in pairs, I honestly cannot think of any recording of a musician playing a set of 3 hornpipes, although I'm sure they must exist somewhere. My advice - leave it at 2.
This is why I love this site so much. haha Kenny, I have never heard that before but I'll take your word for it. I wonder why that is? I know when we play certain HPs like Murphy's that are really long; we tend to only play it twice otherwise we'll be at it all night.
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Re: Set Building

Post by Oisincooke »

Polara Pat wrote:
kenny wrote:Maybe not much help to you - and I don't exactly know why - but I would never play a set of 3 hornpipes. Usually played in pairs, I honestly cannot think of any recording of a musician playing a set of 3 hornpipes, although I'm sure they must exist somewhere. My advice - leave it at 2.
This is why I love this site so much. haha Kenny, I have never heard that before but I'll take your word for it. I wonder why that is? I know when we play certain HPs like Murphy's that are really long; we tend to only play it twice otherwise we'll be at it all night.
I think you've answered your own question here....
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Re: Set Building

Post by Polara Pat »

[quote=] I wonder why that is? I know when we play certain HPs like Murphy's that are really long; we tend to only play it twice otherwise we'll be at it all night.[/quote]
I think you've answered your own question here....[/quote]

Yah, I tend to do that. I just needed confirmation.
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