Low D Grip Questions

[Sedi]

There is one other method of playing without piper's grip which I just remembered. Tony Hinnigan (known for his work on the "Braveheart" and "Titanic" soundtracks) uses his pinky finger for the lowest hole when he plays low D.
You can see it in this video at around the 3:00 minute mark:
https://youtu.be/-nwg5hR324Y

[Dan A.]

Tony Hinnigan uses his pinky finger for the lowest hole when he plays low D.

I have tried that with my low D.

Thus far, I've not developed a good grip for the low D. My initial thought was that maybe, just maybe, my hands were big enough that piper's grip wouldn't be needed, and I could grip it much as one does a high D whistle. 'Twas not to be (and I don't exactly have small hands). I always get some air escaping when I'm trying to play an E or D note. All I need is more practice on it so's I find just the right grip.

[pancelticpiper]

The little-finger-on-Hole 6 grip is super for getting an ergonomic and even spacing of the lower-hand fingers, especially on Low Whistles that have Hole 4 and Hole 5 rather closer together and a large gap between Hole 5 and Hole 6.

And it provides perhaps the best possible anchor-finger, keeping the lower-hand ring finger on the whistle, being that it's no longer on a hole.

Yet another potential advantage is drilling a hole under the lower-hand ring finger for the note F natural! It's sort of like the Bulgarian Kaval, having both F and F# available with no keywork and no crossfingering.

With such a whistle D Major would start

xxx xxxx D
xxx xxxo E
xxx xoxo F#
xxx ooxo G

and D minor would start

xxx xxxx D
xxx xxxo E
xxx xxoo F
xxx oxoo G

In other words, by simply switching the anchor finger from the ring finger to the middle finger converts the whistle from D Major to D minor.

One of these days...

[Greenfire]

I watched your video on streamable. The spacing between the two middle (of 4) fingers on your bottom hand really caught my attention, in a warning-sort-of-way.


Question: did you ever try covering the bottom hole with your pinky ? That finger-spacing would close right up.

trill

ps: I have a Becker Low-D. It's one of almost a dozen I've played or purchased. Each maker has their "own voice". Be sure to try as many as possible ! And, be on the lookout for "tours" when they happen !

I have always had what my family teases as "spock hands" so I don't find that movement to be a stretch really. My finger just needs to learn where the hole is, but I imagine you need to learn new muscle memory when you switch to any key, no?

I did try the pinky, but that does move my middle finger to the middle pad... Both grips are perfectly fine with me, other than my pinky not reaching with pipers grip, something I have been really working on trying to keep down when I play my soprano, because I didn't at first. So I could just go back to not putting it down...

The question of the angle of my wrist or thumb causing a medical issue, I no longer see as a reason for one grip over the other, but that had been the ONLY question between the two grips for me until hearing answers that pertain to the playing, instead of the span of my hand. (span was never a concern for me, surprisingly, because I was certain, as mentioned, that it would be. I can span it, it's just not a span my fingers are blindly doing when feeling for a note, yet)

I'm not sure I LOVE the voice of the Becker, the lower octave is lovely, but the upper octave, sometimes comes out slightly wan if I'm not perfect with my breath control, I'm more used to just a pitch change, not a voice change there, so far. Another complaint I have, is the shallow beak, requiring me to hold it at more of a 60 degree angle than a 45 else the edge of the fipple block rests on my chin. It has the same depth as the soprano Becker (which has fast become my fave voiced soprano of all my current whistles, HIGHLY recommend!) despite having a much larger diameter. I would think, that the maker could preserve the same proportions of the soprano beak on the lower whistle, and still have it not create a much longer one. (this from someone who just places the beak to her lips too, I do not stick it into my mouth, as some do)

I also found a Reyburn whistle with an offset 3 and 6 hole. I can really see that being useful for someone who struggles, and if I were to find an issue with my thumb placement in future, would allow me to just move the thumb up. Interestingly, I don't have that balance issue on the top of the whistle with the thumb, only on the bottom hand.

I would now guess it's a dominant hand thing, rather than a short finger thing, as reversing hands, I absolutely prefer a pipers grip, and cannot easily reach that bottom note with the non dominant hand. Holding the whistle properly though, with my non dominant hand up top, it's no question for that hand that I was probably never going to use pipers grip there.

Greenfire, no one is bothered with you asking your question. In my case, the direct answer I posted was drawn from my own experience, as I remember back going through the same learning process you are addressing now. So, remembering how I struggled and where I ended up, I offered my opinion, "just do it!"

Okay, it was your "bite the bullet" comment that I was taking wrong then, if you didn't intend it to come across the way I took it, then I'll let it go. But man did it get my back up!

I also feel like I need to say again, that I'm not struggling, with either grip, my concern was only for if I would hurt my thumb, or my wrist, using one over the other grip.

Right now I'm still not sure what I want to use, and am kind of thinking it's going to be a matter of, do I want to do a ton of intricate slides and half notes on the whistle, a la Brian Finnegan or do I want to be super fast with ornaments a la Órlaith McAuliffe (my other fave whistler). Those are the only answers between the two grips I've been given other than "what's more comfortable." I'm not experienced enough to know which would serve my style better, I need to develop a style first.

So I'm going to learn both.

[Dan A.]

Holding the whistle properly though, with my non dominant hand up top, it's no question for that hand that I was probably never going to use pipers grip there.

I've said before that I'm mixed-handed; my right hand is dominant, and it is also the hand that goes on top when I play the whistle. That felt most natural from the very first time I picked up a whistle. In my opinion, hand placement should be determined in accordance with what feels natural (having designs on playing a recorder with baroque fingerings, and not wanting to have one custom-made, could be an exception).

My efforts with the low D have thus far not been successful. Part of that, I'm sure, is due to the cold weather that has set in. It could also be that the arthritis that afflicts my knees is creeping into my hands. I've decided to set the low D aside until the warmer months make their glorious return.

[Krasnojarsk]

Right now I'm still not sure what I want to use, and am kind of thinking it's going to be a matter of, do I want to do a ton of intricate slides and half notes on the whistle, a la Brian Finnegan or do I want to be super fast with ornaments a la Órlaith McAuliffe (my other fave whistler). Those are the only answers between the two grips I've been given other than "what's more comfortable." I'm not experienced enough to know which would serve my style better, I need to develop a style first.

So I'm going to learn both.

With regard to being able to do those things, it's not a binary or forced choice. You can do both with piper's grip, and both with whatever Brian Finnegan does (obviously, since he does it). See e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODmqPvpxT50. Also note that uilleann pipers can also do intricate slides and half notes, and super fast ornaments, using the piper's grip, i.e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMvBnEvuBuA for slow slides and half holes and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAtEnKBvmbM or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onppWZ-yZHw for fast and incredibly intricate.

[pancelticpiper]

do I want to do a ton of intricate slides and half notes...or do I want to be super fast with ornaments... Those are the only answers between the two grips I've been given other than "what's more comfortable."

What's more comfortable is the only answer, though.

What grip you use has nothing to do with doing slides or doing half notes or playing fast or playing ornaments.

Which is easy to observe when you see the same player using an end-joint-pad hold on a small whistle then instinctively switch to a middle-joint-pad hold on a big whistle. The player still plays the way they play.

It's true that if I'm playing a tiny whistle (say, the smallest whistle in my roll, an Eb) and using my end-joint-pads on all six fingers the specific technique I use to get half-holed semitones is different than the one I use on Low Whistles when I'm using the middle-joint-pads on the index and middle fingers of both hands.

My first teacher/mentor, whose main instrument was Low Whistle and who used pipers' grip, was of the opinion that he had more control over the half-holed semitones with pipers' grip, and for sure he played those beautifully.

Here at 4:37 I'm half-holing the note that would be F natural on a D whistle, you can see how that's done when using piper's grip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TGU5BuKzcw

[BKWeid]

Agreed, great whistle players who use the pipers grip execute slides and ornaments with precision—McGoldrck, for example.

It is about comfort and preference.