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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 11:44 am 
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oh, yes, it definitely has evolved then, even wikipedia describes that piece as a fipple plug, and indicates the entire mouthpiece assembly as the the fipple, though some dictionaries do at least mention that it used to be the term only for the block.

There's a neat diagram here (https://www.thecarvingpath.net/topic/24 ... -woodwind/) that describes different parts of a fipple, considering the entire mouthpiece as a fipple. No explanation of how the "externally ducted fipple" of native American inspired flutes though, I expect they still contain a fipple block somewhere.


I suppose there's probably some gatekeeping about terms with pedants though?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 12:50 pm 
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Greenfire wrote:
I suppose there's probably some gatekeeping about terms with pedants though?

So where does pedantry begin when clarity matters, and should we just stop caring about clear, correct usage?

The fipple is the block, yes. It can be the beak or mouthpiece, yes. But it's not the edge/blade/labium, and describing this part as such (which some do) helps no-one when it already has at least three perfectly good, clear names of its own.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 3:56 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
So where does pedantry begin when clarity matters, and should we just stop caring about clear, correct usage?



The other day I commented to a whistler that I had never seen a clear fipple before, and he knew exactly what I was talking about, didn't feel the need to correct me. I'm sure that others would also understand if someone were to ask if there is a difference between the green or black fipples on a given whistle, or if another person were to ask how to remove a glued on fipple so they can tune a whistle.

I suppose pedantry would begin when someone would pretend not to understand what any of those or similar situations meant.

Here's the wiki if you feel you need to edit it for clear, correct usage, you can simply delete most of the page and talk about the block instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fipple


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:30 pm 
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Greenfire wrote:
Here's the wiki if you feel you need to edit it for clear, correct usage, you can simply delete most of the page and talk about the block instead. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fipple

I'm not interested in editing that and don't need you to tell me I can if I want to. You can call the whole mouthpiece whatever you like, but that neither makes you right nor me a pedant if I don't.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:26 pm 
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A simple "yes" would have answered the question adequately :D

I'm not sure Wikipedia would appreciate a change in any case, they probably consider their use of the term as correct as you consider it incorrect.

As far as I'm concerned, words evolve, as does music. I'm happy to have an understanding of origins of terms, and am a fan of etymology, but, not a stickler for using the original wording for something. Nor even the correct grammar, so long as I can still understand the person speaking, and if I can't, I'm capable of asking them to be more clear.

Shame if we lost the word fipple entirely though, and instead used block and mouthpiece to avoid any confusion. I've seen conversations with flutists where they correct anyone for daring to call a whistle a flute, when fipple flute isn't really an incorrect description for one.


Makes one wonder what chiffandblock would attract though, woodworkers?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 5:52 pm 
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Greenfire wrote:
A simple "yes" would have answered the question adequately :D

I'm not sure Wikipedia would appreciate a change in any case, they probably consider their use of the term as correct as you consider it incorrect.


Actually, that's the whole point of Wikipedia: someone who actually knows what they're talking about can review an article and correct errors.

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As far as I'm concerned, words evolve, as does music. I'm happy to have an understanding of origins of terms, and am a fan of etymology, but, not a stickler for using the original wording for something. Nor even the correct grammar, so long as I can still understand the person speaking, and if I can't, I'm capable of asking them to be more clear.


Yes, language does evolve, and that's kind of beside the point. The question was one of a technical matter, and precision in usage and convention in meaning are all required. This way confusion and bemusement can be avoided --- the exact problems we're seeing in this thread! I would have thought that this would be seen more as a learning moment, rather than a "oh well, language evolves, what can we do about it!" moment. :poke:

Though I am kind of surprised that after C&F has been in operation for so many years now, there's so much confusion about the two title words in the forum's name!

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:09 pm 
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okay, I apologise, I thought it was simply evolution of the word, not that it was such a serious crime. My bad. Please forgive me, I'll never do it again.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:26 pm 
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whistlecollector wrote:
Though I am kind of surprised that after C&F has been in operation for so many years now, there's so much confusion about the two title words in the forum's name!

Without a doubt, Dale chose the name for its enigmatic quality as much as for its catchiness; that's pure Dale. But who would have foreseen that chiffs and fipples remain actual enigmas in and of themselves? It's almost as if the name is a kōan.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2020 11:19 am 
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From the recently deceased Jeremy Montagu, highly-regarded writer, researcher, and collector of musical instruments, and former president of the Galpin Society ...
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Another term, ‘fipple flute’, is a pure nonsense because the word ‘fipple’ has never been clearly defined. Many authors have used it: some for the whole head, some for the block, some for the duct, some for the mouth. If everybody uses the word ‘fipple’ for a different part of the instrument, then indeed we have a nonsensical term, one which conveys no sense.


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