It is currently Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:46 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 3:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:12 pm
Posts: 43
Incidentally, this is the B on my three whistles. First is the Sweetone, that I'm rather not fond of, you may be able to tell why from this single note. Second is my beloved first whistle, a Waltons. Third is the Dixon Dx005. Notice much difference? I think that B is actually reading as a really flat C....
https://voca.ro/1h40viQaEqKF


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 6:05 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:19 pm
Posts: 425
Location: Detroit Metro
Greenfire wrote:
I should share the photo used as evidence to show me that all the cheap whistles are garbage, none of them are uniform!

Italics mine and used to indicate an exceedingly poor choice of words. Mr. Gumby has pointed out before that some of the best music you'll ever hear was played on an inexpensive, mass-produced whistle. Not everyone can afford a super-pricey whistle, and not everyone wants one. And if such whistles were as execrable as you're painting them out to be, why do they continue to be produced? If they were that awful, surely no one would buy them and their manufacture would cease. But no, Clarke, Feadóg, Generation, Walton's, et. al. are still going strong. You may not like them, but it's quite bad form to suggest that all cheap whistles are garbage.

_________________
I seem to have a mild to moderate case of WhOAD!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2020 8:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:12 pm
Posts: 43
I agree, and love my Waltons! Especially after tweaking it.

But plenty of people seemed to approve of that comment, and it's a shame. I hope you recognised that the sentiment wasn't mine.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:11 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
Posts: 13562
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
Greenfire wrote:
I agree, and love my Waltons! Especially after tweaking it.

But plenty of people seemed to approve of that comment, and it's a shame. I hope you recognised that the sentiment wasn't mine.

Did they? Where? How do you know? And whose sentiment was it if not yours?

_________________
"Only connect!"

https://youtu.be/ezbWVysJAOY
https://tapm.bandcamp.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 8:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5560
Location: the Back of Beyond
Quote:
Incidentally, this is the B on my three whistles. First is the Sweetone, that I'm rather not fond of, you may be able to tell why from this single note. Second is my beloved first whistle, a Waltons. Third is the Dixon Dx005. Notice much difference? I think that B is actually reading as a really flat C....


Ouch.

You're not exactly underblowing them. :shock:

I was playing an old Oak this morning. The Oak is a very light playing whistle, you merely breathe into it and it will reward you. Overblow it and some notes will break. I hadn't played it for a while and had the unvented d' break on me on the first pass. The vented one was fine and I had adjusted to the lightness of touch within the minute. But there was a lesson there.

Most problems beginners have with whistles, breaking or out of tune notes are more often than not driver related. Treat them gently and you will be flying.

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:12 pm
Posts: 43
Mr.Gumby wrote:
You're not exactly underblowing them. :shock:

Ugh, I was hoping I was doing okay there. Boo.
With flutini, and with two tuning apps on my phone, I put both Bs on the other whistles within a few cents of in tune on that sample, and while I can underblow the sweetone to being only 20 cents sharp of in tune on each note individually, it has a super weak sound even getting it there, like I'm wheezing, barely musical. I'd rather just move the mouthpiece a tiny bit and be able to get a more musical note.

Now you have me thinking I should sharpen the other two whistles and play even softer, it might help me hit the second octave a and b less flat, I thought it was simply me not pushing the air fast enough for them yet, and I needed to work on that. I do know that the breath requirements between the Waltons and the Dixon are not the same as each other, and am not surprised that the Sweetone needs different air too, maybe it's just too sensitive for me. I have zero complaints with the others.



benhall.1 wrote:
Did they? Where? How do you know? And whose sentiment was it if not yours?

tl/dr: I asked in a facebook group about removing the stuck mouthpiece on my sweetone, got told that it should be the exact same length as my waltons, and the holes should be identical in placement, specifically the distance to the bottom of the tube to the placement of the lowest hole. Was sent a photo of someone showing how all of his "cheap crappy whistles like generations" all had this issue, and was told to get a new one. Many people agreed. I actually did have one person say that they should be different, since posting this on here, so that's good news at least.

Here's some of the other comments that were made to me: "You need the tube the same length to create the same standing wave/note." "The hole should be the same distance from the end of the whistle." "It wont help. The holes are fundamentally in the wrong place." "Buy yourself a better quality Tin Whistle, it also changes your playing. With a good Tin Whistle that sounds good, you sound better too." "Honestly, it is not worth trying to fix. Buy another Sweetone, or get yourself a Tony Dixon Trad, which is intentionally tunable, and not very much more than the Sweetone...and a way better whistle." "I'll be another that says, "ditch the Clarke." They're just not at all well-made whistles."

I found it completely implausible that a conical whistle was supposed to be identical to a non conical and even stated as much in the group, yet with seeing no one agree with me, I had to question if I somehow was wrong, so asked in here, and was happy to know that I wasn't insane, and that I was just being given bad advice. One guy tested all his whistles and said that the Generations were just as bad and all over the place as mine so it wasn't just the clarke, then noted he improved his by moving them as much as 12mm, and "someone should let them know".

I've decided to only use that group for finding tunes, and not advice.

Actually you inspired me to just delete the post so others wouldn't follow bad advice too. Though I saved some screenshots so I can remember names of who not to listen to if I see them giving more advice.


Last edited by Greenfire on Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 9:53 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5560
Location: the Back of Beyond
Quote:
Ugh, I was hoping I was doing okay there. Boo.


It may be the recording quality playing part in what I am hearing but it seems to me I hear that buzz a note gets when pushed to breaking point.


Quote:
I found it completely implausible that a conical whistle was supposed to be identical to a non conical


Making a whistle conical determines the placement and size of the holes. The degree/angle of the cone allows equally spaced and sized holes where as straight tube needs a series of compromises, varying the hole sizes to allow for a reasonably comfortable placement.

Here's an old French one, equally spaced and sized holes, and crossfingerings allowing a fairly correct chromatic scale to boot:

Image

and another, similar, one, with a cylindrical whistle by the same maker (different keys though):

Image

[edited to weed out a bunch of typos]

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Last edited by Mr.Gumby on Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 12:54 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:12 pm
Posts: 43
I wish I had you in my pocket the other day, those whistles are lovely! I would have loved to be able to share them and explain so much prettier, how you did, that they can't possibly be identical and be in tune.

As for buzzing...

My Waltons has does have a bit of a buzz to it, particularly the bell note. It's my only complaint apart from the coating on it. The Dixon and Sweetone sound rather twee beside it. It was worse when I first got it, no matter how hard or soft I blew, I didn't want to blame the whistle so put it down to user error and figured I'd work on it.. Then someone suggested putting some clay in the back of the mouthpiece and most of it went away, though if I don't blow hard enough in the second octave, it's there, trying to drop to the lower octave. I have a hard time blowing hard enough to remove it on some of the higher notes, I don't hear it on the other whistles. It's the first thing I notice when it gets clogged as well. I even removed the clay after 6 weeks of playing to see if it wasn't all in my head but the ringing/buzzing worsened. (it's back now, sadly doesn't sound as good as it did the first go but that probably IS in my head) But, I just listened again to that recording, and they all sound awful and I can barely tell the difference between them on it, so I'm not going to use vocaroo any longer.

The Waltons though does have a different sound than I've heard other whistles have on recordings, and I didn't expect it to sound like this when I got it, but then I watched a LOT of comparison videos on youtube, Nataniel Dowell has the best comparisons in my opinion. His has a similar tone to mine, though I do not play it so well, you can definitely tell the difference between it and the other whistles when played by someone who does play well. I trust his videos because he doesn't tweak the sound, as some other youtubers have.

I don't argue that I have a great ear, but I did recognise someone's golf club by the sound it made hitting the ball this past summer, so it can't be awful can it? I had the same club, asked him if he was playing it, and ended up running home to sell him mine. Plus, it is my ear, and I ultimately have to be the one to like the sound of what I'm playing at least when I'm alone. And they always sound different when resonating within your own skull, right?

Mind you, I'm someone who isn't a fan of some really popular whistles (Susato and Carbony come to mind sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings), so it could be just me. Though I may like them in person, I think we know what we like and what we don't. I'm just at the point of wanting to know how to describe the sounds I prefer, and stay away from the ones I don't. That's another reason I love Nathaniel Dowell's channel, he shares a ton of different whistles, compares the same tune between whistles, describes the tone, what he likes and doesn't like and doesn't alter the sound with special effects. He however doesn't like his Waltons, but even listening on this one it sounds good to me, so I'm keeping with it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9A7bDfDBTLc

I tried putting a piece of tape on the end of the sweetone and playing softly, and put it on a video instead of using vocaroo. Vocaroo removes the background noise, my camera doesn't so I apologise in advance for that, but here's me playing a tune, slowly and clearly so you could hear the notes. https://streamable.com/ox88yr This is with about a mm of tape on the end, I suspect adding another mm will be best, though I am trying to play softer, as mentioned, the notes get wheezy and I can't hit the second octave so for now, this is the best I have. Tune is Cronin's Favourite, not too popular but a fun tune, excellent rendition here, I'm planning to learn this entire set to play along with it, at the moment, I have to constantly rewind, tune starts at 2:25 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s68W4enSGOs I can play this around 60bpm, so have to slow it down a little until I can pick up speed, above that and I lose the tune. It probably sounds fine, even listening to that it sounds less sharp than it does inside my skull. Most telling is when you compare instrument to instrument, so I don't think I'll play this one with anyone if I can't tune it.

I ran flutini in the background while playing, to catch, it's still a little sharp but not as much, so I may look at just adding a little to the end of it if I can't lengthen it from the other end. I was given this neat site so know that fine tuning is definitely doable on a whistle if one is so inclined. I'll wait for Mr. Freeman to come back to work after he's done saving lives if I feel the need. http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Tin-whistle-retuning.htm In the meantime I'm looking forward to a hand tuned whistle from Mr. Becker.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 2:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5560
Location: the Back of Beyond
Quote:
Tune is Cronin's Favourite, not too popular but a fun tune, excellent rendition here, I'm planning to learn this entire set to play along with it, at the moment, I have to constantly rewind, tune starts at 2:25 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s68W4enSGOs I can play this around 60bpm, so have to slow it down a little until I can pick up speed, above that and I lose the tune. It probably sounds fine, even listening to that it sounds less sharp than it does inside my skull.


That's a world of difference compar5ed to the vocaroo clip. You're doing fine there, perhaps even a bit to careful (which is only natural).

Only thing I would say is: not let your fingers get in the way of your rhythm, ornamentation shoukld support the tune not work against it. But that too will sort itself out in time if you mind it a bit. It could be worth your while to listen to some of the puffy old whislteplayers, it's all about the rhythm with them.

Cronin's is well known enough, it must have been popular at some point., I learned it some twenty years ago from a private tape from the fifties of the Kilfenora playing for the competition that won them their third in a row All Ireland during the KIlrush Fleadh during the early sixties. At the time I was starting to play with a woman who was getting back into concertinaplaying late in life. She played when in her teens but gave it up after getting married, bringing up the children etc. She was around music all the time and played it in her head, was a lovely singer and dancer too. Anyhow, late in life she went back to it and let it all pour out. I was always testing out tunes on her, stir her memories. I played Cronin's for her and she picked up the concertina and played it straigh off. Irrepressable. Anyhow, she said it was popular at the house dances of the middle and third quarter of the 20th century.

The version I play is perhaps slightly less filled in, the tune is unusual like that perhaps, among the double jigs. eag e2 d| eaa bag| e2 g d2 g|egg g--ete that sort of thing. It also mostly avoids the F, keeping it (mostly) in a gapped scale, without F or c (bar perhaps a passing ornamental f : EAA ABd|{3efg e d-- rather than a plain EAA ABd| ege d-- not too far from how you have it.

Something like this (yes, there's one passing f)

T:Cronin's
R:double jig
S:Kilfenora ceili band
H:From a private recording of a ceiliband competition held in the Square,
H:Kilrush Co Clare july 196
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:G
|:G|EAA ABd|ege dBA|GEG GAB|dBA GED|
EAA ABd|ege def|~g2d edB|BAG A2:|
|:d|eag e2d|eaa bag|e2g d2g|egg ged|
eag e2d|eaa bag|ege dBG|BAG A2:|

Great tune.

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:16 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:19 pm
Posts: 425
Location: Detroit Metro
Greenfire wrote:
"Buy yourself a better quality Tin Whistle, it also changes your playing. With a good Tin Whistle that sounds good, you sound better too."

Every time I hear someone making a similar statement, I wonder which high-end manufacturer they're shilling for. I've heard it said that a quality instrument can help improve your playing because you'll find yourself playing it more often. That assertion has a ring of plausibility to it, but (in the case of a relative newcomer) suggesting that merely playing a few notes on a quality instrument will instantly make you sound better is downright ludicrous.

_________________
I seem to have a mild to moderate case of WhOAD!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:12 pm
Posts: 43
Dan A. wrote:
Every time I hear someone making a similar statement, I wonder which high-end manufacturer they're shilling for. I've heard it said that a quality instrument can help improve your playing because you'll find yourself playing it more often. That assertion has a ring of plausibility to it, but (in the case of a relative newcomer) suggesting that merely playing a few notes on a quality instrument will instantly make you sound better is downright ludicrous.

The consensus was Dixon! FWIW, I bought the cheapest whistle I could find. I figured that if I'm still playing on it after a year, I could think about buying one that is nicer, either by tone, or looks or handmade by someone. After finding myself playing for a few hours every day, and it clogging, I saw a suggestion of someone who had a backup whistle, and thought it was a good idea. I ordered a Dixon, wanting one that sounded very different, made of a different material, because then I'd also have something to compare. Shipping was really delayed though, so in the meantime, a cheap Sweetone came up and I ended up with that.

Then my husband fell in love with the sound of a Low D and encouraged me to buy one, and I ordered one from Mr. Becker. The price was right, and I'm not sure I can even play it, so I didn't want to spend hundreds until my fingers could move where they should. I messaged him and asked him to throw in a High D as well, because I couldn't come up with a good reason not to try one, for the price. I'm now concerned that given a few more months of playing, that I'll end up with a generation, a feadog, an oak, and any tweaked versions of such that come available, all the while I am narrowing down some of the more expensive ones I love the sound of.

Is WOAD contagious then?

Mr.Gumby wrote:

That's a world of difference compar5ed to the vocaroo clip. You're doing fine there, perhaps even a bit to careful (which is only natural).

Only thing I would say is: not let your fingers get in the way of your rhythm, ornamentation shoukld support the tune not work against it. But that too will sort itself out in time if you mind it a bit. It could be worth your while to listen to some of the puffy old whislteplayers, it's all about the rhythm with them.
Cronin's is well known enough, it must have been popular at some point., I learned it some twenty years ago from a private tape from the fifties of the Kilfenora playing for the competition that won them their third in a row All Ireland during the KIlrush Fleadh during the early sixties.



I would seriously love to hear it! I haven't found it on youtube as a whistle tune under this name or others!

I'm using it as a learning tune, trying to figure out where to put ornaments and speed up my left hand ring finger. I can't play with ornaments faster than this without rushing a few notes, and really, my long roll on a suffers from the tap ending up a little like I'm trying to slide rather than pop the finger. It's the slowest finger I have! The faster I go the more it wants to slide in instead of pop. I can play this plain quite fast if I ignore the a roll or tongue the notes, so I'm working on playing slow, putting in ornaments where I think they belong. Hearing someone else's example would help a lot! (feel like playing a tune for me??? ;) ) So yes, slow and careful are my best friend, and I actually set a metronome and speed it up if I'm playing well. It helps me hear if I'm rushing, and yes, the fingers can get in the way so the ornaments tend to drop off the faster I play.

As to ornaments, I'm stuck between putting a cut on either the e or the g here at the beginning:
G | EAA ABd | e'ge dBA where the 'g is the cut, or G | EAA ABd | eg'e dBA where the e is the cut... I figure it's a great tune to learn with, and I'm picking up some "rules" here and there that I'm already having an easy time fitting in. (such as for taps: useful as a standalone ornamentation on G,A,B can't recall where I wrote that one down from, but some whistler somewhere said it!) The 'g is easier to play, at least for now, and can create the cut a lot quicker than on the 'e, I find that cuts going down in pitch are harder than cuts going up, but as to where it sounds best in this tune... I'm undecided. I am now playing with your phrasing, and may just fall in love all over again!

This tune and Jerry's Beaver Hat are the ones I'm playing around with the most right now as to how to ornament! This one is making me speed up that A roll, so it'll be played often. Also off to find some puffy old whistleplayers!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 3:39 pm 
Offline
Moderatorer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 36265
Location: Where else?
Greenfire wrote:
Is WOAD contagious then?

If I'm any example, then no. The closest I got was having one of practically every key (a must when playing with singers); I might have had 2 or 3 Ds, but the extras just sort of showed up looking for a home, so that was the extent of it. If they played well enough I kept them, and looked no further.

_________________
"Time is the wisest counselor of all." - Pericles

"I remain not entirely convinced of it." - Nano


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2020 2:12 pm
Posts: 43
I'm going to pretend other keys don't exist, for the moment at least.

Here's the bit I'm asking about with cutting on either the g or e, I play each twice. Hoping those who know the tune, and where best to accent a jig can help me! https://streamable.com/ljkzyy


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 10:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:19 pm
Posts: 425
Location: Detroit Metro
Greenfire wrote:
[I'm now concerned that given a few more months of playing, that I'll end up with a generation, a feadog, an oak, and any tweaked versions of such that come available, all the while I am narrowing down some of the more expensive ones I love the sound of.

Much the same here. Though I haven't picked up an Oak yet, I have all the others you mentioned and then some. I had plans to pick up an Oak and an Acorn, but those plans seem to have fallen by the wayside. It may be a while before I pick up any more whistles, and two that are currently in the case will be on their way out soon. Perhaps my WhOAD is going into remission!

And I do agree that Dixons are mighty fine instruments!

_________________
I seem to have a mild to moderate case of WhOAD!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 19, 2020 3:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5560
Location: the Back of Beyond
We could probably get into something lengthy about the intricacies of ornamentation but I am not sure that would be helpfull. As I said before (about piping), seek out good players (not youtube or social media posters, unless you know what to look for) and listen for the detail in their music. Get your basics right and worry about the more intricate stuff later. Don't let your fingers get in the way of the flow. And don't worry about buying more whistles, it's all distraction.

I thought the Irish Traditional Music Archive (ITMA) had playlists with old style whistleplayers, Joe Bane and the like, the old country players, but I couldn't immediately find any of that. You probably won't find too many of the old whislteplayers on youtube although you could look up people like Kieran Collins, not one of the puffy guys but a lovely clear and simple style, you could do worse than learn off his playing.

I did find this:

ITMA : tin whistle players 2008-2014

When I say 'the old puffy guys' I mean stuff like this : West along the Road it's an old private recording, probably 60s or 70s, West Clare but we've been unable to establish who is playing. Whatever the way, simple powerful stuff, no fuss, nothing fancy but pure solid music. I'll leave the clip there for a day or two.


There also this : |Tom McHale home recording on soundcloud, there some nice music in that. No old and puffy stuff, young buck of the time.

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 58 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 39 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.116s | 11 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)