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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 6:38 am 
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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 6:47 am 
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That's long been one of my favourite cartoons, Phill.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 6:53 am 
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I like XKCD, but as time goes on that particular cartoon annoys me more and more. That is, however, a much broader topic that isn't really worth going into here.


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 10:00 am 
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It's fundamentally the same thing.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 12:38 pm 
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Katharine wrote:
Really, it depends on one's goals. If one learns incorrectly from these people and goes to a session, it's not going to end well.


I think you hit the nail on the head there. If you're at all serious about becoming a musician the internet is probably not the best way to learn (I understand that there are some good programs, but as someone who earned a college degree online, I believe that in person is always the preferred method). My goal with playing the tin whistle is to get to a point where my family doesn't protest before I even start playing, so I enjoy learning the traditional songs as well as songs my family might recognize. This week I've been working on "the Lilting Banshee" and "Concerning Hobbits" - easy version.


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 3:10 pm 
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Katharine wrote:

Really, it depends on one's goals. If one learns incorrectly from these people and goes to a session, it's not going to end well.



Now this is the heart of the matter – goals!
The original poster (bigsciota) used an extremely wide brush to paint his point. Had he narrowed it down to “if your goal is to learn traditional Irish music and play it the traditional way then beware of some of the youtube tutors” then I would have wholeheartedly agreed with him.

Now let’s get to the heart of the matter that you mentioned – goals. Not everyone who wants to learn the whistle is planning on playing in sessions. The youtube tutor that I’ve been watching had 40,000 subscribers as of two months ago. Today the number is just short of 45,000! I am one of those new (almost 5,000) subscribers because I wanted to learn to play the whistle. I do not have any desire to play in sessions and I dare say that 10’s of thousands of the subscribers don’t either. Therefore, I do not need to beware of this tutor and neither do thousands of other folks like me. This tutor has accomplished my original goal - to learn how to play the whistle (not to learn to play it traditionally but to play it). Judging from the growing numbers of this tutor’s subscriber base there are a large number of people just like me.

I know my capabilities and lack thereof! IF I were to change my goals to beyond what this tutor can offer then I would look for other sources of knowledge. As mentioned above, most likely an in person tutor would be most beneficial. But for now this person provides me with all I need to know to accomplish my goal (not your goal). East Texas is not a hotbed for Irish Traditional Music but then I don’t care because all I want to do is to play songs that I care about in a way that they are recognizable to my family and friends.

I don’t claim to know about the other tutors that are on youtube. I only know about this one that I’m using and they do not claim to be musically trained and they do not claim to be a great player. They also state that they are poor at the faster songs and prefer the slower ones.
So if there are some people out there claiming to teach the Irish traditional way and are not then I understand the concern. But the original post painted too wide a swath and it included someone when they shouldn’t have been included.

Paint with a narrower brush and I will be able to say I agree.


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 3:12 pm 
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Alaskamike wrote:
Katharine wrote:
Really, it depends on one's goals. If one learns incorrectly from these people and goes to a session, it's not going to end well.


I think you hit the nail on the head there. If you're at all serious about becoming a musician the internet is probably not the best way to learn (I understand that there are some good programs, but as someone who earned a college degree online, I believe that in person is always the preferred method). My goal with playing the tin whistle is to get to a point where my family doesn't protest before I even start playing, so I enjoy learning the traditional songs as well as songs my family might recognize. This week I've been working on "the Lilting Banshee" and "Concerning Hobbits" - easy version.



Alaskamike, your goals sound very similar to mine!!!


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 3:37 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
It's fundamentally the same thing.


I'm not sure what you're referring to here, Peter.

AlaskaMike wrote:
If you're at all serious about becoming a musician the internet is probably not the best way to learn (I understand that there are some good programs, but as someone who earned a college degree online, I believe that in person is always the preferred method).


In-person is obviously better, but the internet is really a fantastic place to learn. A video walkthrough is much better IMO than the book and tape tutorials of years past, and there are more resources (many of the them free) at your disposal than ever before. People who would never have ever seen or heard a tin whistle in their area are now able to get one and learn to play it all through the internet. It's great!

That goes a bit to my problem with the XKCD cartoon above; most beginners today are going to look to the internet to learn rather than signing up for lessons at their local Comhaltas or music school (if they even have one nearby). The joke in the comic only works if you see someone being "wrong on the internet" as a trivial matter. When that panel was drawn 12 years ago the internet and social media was still viewed by many as a sideshow, not part of "real life." That is very much not the case now in just about every aspect of society, including in music.

The point of my post was not to demean all YouTube tutorials, as there are some wonderful ones up there. It's more that if you search "beginner tin whistle" or "tin whistle tutorial," you're going to get some results that are great and some that are terrible. A beginner is going to have a hard time sorting through which is which on their own, so it's worth helping guide them towards the right resources. And making sure that they have a healthy sense of skepticism about, as other posters have pointed out, what the ultimate goal of the person making the video is (ie teaching music or selling something?) will help them make better choices about which resources they use.

TxWhistler wrote:
Had he narrowed it down to “if your goal is to learn traditional Irish music and play it the traditional way then beware of some of the youtube tutors” then I would have wholeheartedly agreed with him.


This is exactly what I did say:

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If you're looking for tutorial materials for Irish trad or tin whistle playing in general, please be critical about what you turn to. Listen to the "teacher" playing, and compare them to well-known whistle players. They don't have to all be at the level of Mary Bergin, but it'll help determine if this person is really in a position to be teaching. If they're teaching a tune, listen to other versions of that tune to make sure that their version lines up. Also, if you're looking to specifically learn a style like Irish trad, be sure that the person actually plays in that style and has a good grasp of the unique techniques, repertoire, and sound of that genre.


I can't see how that is objectionable. It's honestly obvious enough advice that it seems silly to even mention it, as a few other posters have noted. But then I see view counts and the "recommended videos" YouTube suggests and realize that apparently not enough people are taking that advice.

TxWihstler wrote:
But the original post painted too wide a swath and it included someone when they shouldn’t have been included.


I didn't mention a single name in my original post, and honestly wasn't even thinking of the person you seem to be talking about when I originally posted. I also went out of my way to say that there are a lot of great resources on YouTube. The second sentence was "[t]his is not a warning against YouTube or against tutorial videos in general." I think you may have read something into it that isn't there.


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 3:56 pm 
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Interesting discussion. My two bobs worth - I needed the internet for the basics as I have no access to ITM players and sessions. Instruction books are OK but limited in improving a Beginners playing. I wish I had taken heed sooner of the advice of Mr Gumby and others to pick a talented ITM recording artist or two and listen, listen again and then listen properly.
Cheers


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 3:59 pm 
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Are we referring to the person who gives all of these "tips"on how to play the tin-whistle without actually ever playing a whole tune through from start to finish ?

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 4:08 pm 
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bigsciota wrote:
Peter Duggan wrote:
It's fundamentally the same thing.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here, Peter.

I'd already said:
Peter Duggan wrote:
You might as well say 'beware the Internet'!

DrPhill posted the cartoon.

You said:
bigsciota wrote:
That is, however, a much broader topic that isn't really worth going into here.

I'm saying it's not really a much broader topic because you might as well say 'beware the Internet' as 'beware YouTube tutorials'.

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 4:36 pm 
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Peter Duggan wrote:
bigsciota wrote:
That is, however, a much broader topic that isn't really worth going into here.

I'm saying it's not really a much broader topic because you might as well say 'beware the Internet' as 'beware YouTube tutorials'.


Ah, gotcha. I wasn't clear in that post. I meant that my problems with that cartoon are a much broader topic that isn't worth getting into (and wouldn't be allowed under forum rules as it gets into politics), not that the cartoon topic itself is a much broader topic. I should have made that more clear.


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 4:45 pm 
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OK, I did wonder, but interpreted one way. Sorry!

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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 5:19 pm 
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kenny wrote:
Are we referring to the person who gives all of these "tips"on how to play the tin-whistle without actually ever playing a whole tune through from start to finish ?

Exactly.


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PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2020 6:16 pm 
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TxWhistler wrote:
they do not claim to be musically trained and they do not claim to be a great player. They also state that they are poor at the faster songs and prefer the slower ones.
So, um, not musically qualified, not qualified to play well, possibly no educational qualifications, .... What then qualifies them to teach tin whistle? I think that's the original point: when looking to learn from someone, check that they have a background that qualifies them to teach you, not lead you down some dead end. The ability to get attention does not automatically qualify someone.


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