It is currently Fri Jun 05, 2020 6:50 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 
PostPosted: Sun May 17, 2020 5:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 13, 2020 7:13 pm
Posts: 3
Hey folks, I've been a lurker since about October of 2019, picked up a Feadog D in November and have been playing since. I have a question, which is probably a playing technique issue but may be a whistle issue. With my Feadog C whistle, playing Julia Delaney's reel, I am having trouble with the 31516151 (ecgcacgc) in the B part in the upper octave. How do you navigate a part like that with high-low-high-low breath pressure? I can navigate arpeggios with 1358531, but the form in Julia Delaney seems to show up in other ITM like Cooley's Reel, Wheels of the World, and Paddy on the Turnpike.

The Feadog C I have goes flat in the second octave and gets flatter in the upper half of the second octave. Posts here say a flat second octave is to be expected. Blowing more air to pitch helps some, but also makes it very loud and I am not certain it completely corrects the flatness. I removed the head and tuned it some, first with the low bell note at C on an electronic tuner, then sharpening that a bit to see if it would help with the upper half of the second octave. I also added some poster putty under the windway. Those seemed to help a bit but I may be fooled by a placebo effect. How much flattening is expected for a C whistle? How do you know if you have a duff whistle and should just get another?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 12:42 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
Posts: 13164
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
I'm confused with a few points in that. I'll try and answer anyway ... (By the way, the short answer is that these patterns are difficult at first, and do require quite a bit of practice. They're also common patterns in Irish music.)

Which whistle have you got? Is it a Feadog D or a Feadog C? Or do you have both, as you've mentioned both? From the numbers you've used, I'd say you must mean the C whistle, at least in this context. Those patterns really are very difficult at first. There is a bit of a difference in breath pressure between the higher notes and the middle c, which is the 'pedal' note of the pattern in question, i.e. the note that the pattern keeps coming back to. But the way to get used to that is to practice the pattern, and other patterns like this, over and over, very, very slowly. Eventually, you won't have to think about the breath pressure at all.

As for whether you have a duff whistle or not, I think the only way to know for sure would be to get someone who is a good whistle player to try it. Mind you, I wouldn't recommend doing that during the current pandemic.

By the way, the pattern you mention comes up, at those pitches, in tunes that you'd normally play on a D whistle too. Now that's really hard. Well, I think it is, at any rate.

_________________
"Only connect!"

https://youtu.be/ezbWVysJAOY
https://tapm.bandcamp.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 4:09 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5307
Location: the Back of Beyond
It strikes me as slightly odd your high notes come out flat. That doesn't happen on any of my C whistles, or any of my whistles for that matter. I say that with the caveat I don't have a Feadóg C. Control your blowing in both octaves (blowing the lower octave sharp can make the higher seem flat in comparison, for example) and you should be close enough. The person doing the driving decides to a great extend where things go.

The tune, in its most wellknown version anyway, is basically a fiddle tune, that run, in the higher octave anyway, is a tricky one on the whistle. You can do two things, practice it slowly until you have it or adapt the tune to suit the instrument better, plenty of option to play that run differently and make it more of a whistle tune.

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 7:18 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
Posts: 4539
Location: WV to the OC
chill wrote:
31516151 (ecgcacgc) in the B part in the upper octave.


Are those the notes fingered as if they would be on a D whistle, or are they the sounding pitches on a C whistle?

So here https://thesession.org/tunes/589

if you go down to the 5th setting, it's transposed to E minor, so you can play it on a C whistle and it comes out in D minor.

I think what you mean is what I've heard called the "rocking" phrase or motif, sort of like the roof of a house, middle/high/middle over a fixed lower note, what's called a "pedal tone" in classical music.

In this case, in ABC notation, it would be (F# being assumed)

| fdad bdad |

These phrases are very common in Irish reels, both that way and inverted.

Yes going from high B down to Middle D is tricky for breath control.

To master it I would have a student practice it slowly and legato, using no tonguing or interruption of the airstream whatsoever.

For sure when you're performing it you might want to using tonguing, but to practice mastering the breath control I feel it's important to rely on breath control alone and not use tonguing as a crutch.

The other thing playing legato does is force you to use accurate fingering. Tonguing can disguise sloppy fingering.

_________________
Richard Cook
1978 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle


Last edited by pancelticpiper on Mon May 18, 2020 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 7:32 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5307
Location: the Back of Beyond
Quote:
Are those the notes fingered as if they would be on a D whistle, or are they the sounding pitches on a C whistle?


The answer is right there, between the numbers and the letters:



Quote:
31516151 (ecgcacgc)

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:45 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
Posts: 4539
Location: WV to the OC
One thing about that particular phrase

| f#dad bdad |

is that if you listen very closely you might hear a bit of slight-of-hand going on.

Years ago I was playing some tune with that phrase on flute and the other fluteplayer said "how are getting that High B so sweet?"

When we messed around with it we figured out that it was so sweet because it wasn't really there.

I suppose because on many instruments High B can require so much more pressure than the other notes that when you play that phrase in a reel at full speed and on a fairly smooth breath the High B isn't a pure 2nd octave note but sort of between the octaves.

Just now on my Low Whistle yes I could do that phrase with an actual High B but it doesn't sound as smooth.

_________________
Richard Cook
1978 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2020 7:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 10:18 pm
Posts: 288
While we're on this topic.

Is there a musical term for phrases that jump like this? As you say, they are common in ITM. Fiddlers struggle with crossing strings, and winds struggle with breath pressure. For my part, jumps are perhaps the slowest technical thing to develop.

I mean, we have arpeggios, and scales. What name exists for jumps between sevenths, sixths, fifths, etc?

In fact, I've recently been putting on my practice list tunes that offer me the opportunity to practice difficult jumps:
- Paddy Fahey #1 Dminor.
- Flying Home to Shelley
- JB Reel
- Lad O'Beirnes (in F and another in Gminor.)

Some lie super-easy on the flute, maybe because the jumps are 3rds or 4ths within one octave, like The Rookery or Sally Garden,


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 8:41 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
Posts: 4539
Location: WV to the OC
tstermitz wrote:

Is there a musical term for phrases that jump like this? As you say, they are common in ITM.


I don't know what they call it in Ireland, I've only heard it called the "rocking" phrase.

Some examples with going middle-high-middle over a low pedal tone (in ABC notation)

E2BE dEBE
(F#) F2AF BFAF
G2BG dGBG
G2dG eGdG
A2cA eAcA (C natural or sharp)
(F#) B2eB fBeB
(C natural) c2ec gcec
c2gc acgc
(F#) d2fd adfd
d2gd adgd
d2ad bdad

and many many more!

Then there's ones with the pedal tone above:

(F#) B2EB FBEB
(F#) f2df efdf

Anyhow it's very common.

Here's one I play often, the tune is Big John McNeil. For whistle I transposed it to the key of D, you play it on an A whistle for it to come out in A Major where they usually play it on fiddle.

The 2nd part has that thing where you're alternating high A and high B with Middle D.

See the 5th setting, in D

https://thesession.org/tunes/1002#setting37892

When I was playing this tune yesterday the high B's were popping out fine on one whistle and were that in-between-the-octaves thing on another whistle. I don't think anybody would hear the difference.

_________________
Richard Cook
1978 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 1:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 10:18 pm
Posts: 288
Rocking. I like that. As in: " Rocking the 5ths, 6ths & 7ths."

The bane of my last two weeks of practice is the B part of The Shetland Fiddler https://thesession.org/tunes/97

First it rocks DOWN to the A - 5th, 6th, 7th & 8th. Breath control, grasshopper!
Then it flips to rocking UP to the e - 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd. A fiddler faces the additional difficulty of flipping the bowing rock.
Then it rocks DOWN again to A - 4th, 5th, 6th & 7th - Ah, a little easier.

My other breath practice tune is Flying Home to Shelley: https://thesession.org/tunes/17722

Rocks on G - 5th, 4th, 3rd
Again rocks on G - 4th, 3rd, 2nd.
Then on G - 2nd, 3rd, 2nd


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 1:39 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
Posts: 13164
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe
tstermitz wrote:
A fiddler faces the additional difficulty of flipping the bowing rock.

Actually, those patterns are really easy on fiddle. It's classic fiddling stuff, that. Not so easy on wind instruments.

_________________
"Only connect!"

https://youtu.be/ezbWVysJAOY
https://tapm.bandcamp.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 1:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 13, 2020 7:13 pm
Posts: 3
Thanks for the responses!

benhall.1 wrote:
Which whistle have you got? Is it a Feadog D or a Feadog C? Or do you have both, as you've mentioned both?


Both. I am doing Julia Delaney's on the C whistle in Dm (dorian).

Mr.Gumby wrote:
The tune, in its most wellknown version anyway, is basically a fiddle tune, that run, in the higher octave anyway, is a tricky one on the whistle. You can do two things, practice it slowly until you have it or adapt the tune to suit the instrument better, plenty of option to play that run differently and make it more of a whistle tune.


With all three of you suggesting more practice, it's going to be more practice. How would you adapt the tune to suit the whistle better or to play the run differently to make it more of a whistle tune? Long term, I think learning to play the part with the pedal tone or rocking tone is the way to go, but I am curious what you would do to rearrange the part.

pancelticpiper wrote:
chill wrote:
31516151 (ecgcacgc) in the B part in the upper octave.


Are those the notes fingered as if they would be on a D whistle, or are they the sounding pitches on a C whistle?


The numbers were scalar degrees based on the C, the letters are my uneducated attempt at ABC notation using lowercase letters for the upper octave. Is there a resource for how ABC notation works?

Quote:
For sure when you're performing it you might want to using tonguing, but to practice mastering the breath control I feel it's important to rely on breath control alone and not use tonguing as a crutch.

The other thing playing legato does is force you to use accurate fingering. Tonguing can disguise sloppy fingering.


One of the early bits of advice I heeded from this forum was a post by you with a breath pressure exercise, low D to low E, then to F#, and on up the scale, returning to low D each time, and without tonguing. Useful stuff, thanks!

Quote:
As for whether you have a duff whistle or not, I think the only way to know for sure would be to get someone who is a good whistle player to try it. Mind you, I wouldn't recommend doing that during the current pandemic.


That may have to wait then!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2020 8:37 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
Posts: 4539
Location: WV to the OC
tstermitz wrote:
Rocking. I like that. As in Rocking the 5ths, 6ths & 7ths.


Ha! I think it's more like a rocking-chair motion.

tstermitz wrote:
The bane of my last two weeks of practice is the B part of The Shetland Fiddler https://thesession.org/tunes/97

First it rocks DOWN to the A - 5th, 6th, 7th & 8th. Breath control, grasshopper!
Then it flips to rocking UP to the e - 5th, 4th, 3rd, 2nd. A fiddler faces the additional difficulty of flipping the bowing rock.
Then it rocks DOWN again to A - 4th, 5th, 6th & 7th - Ah, a little easier.


The 3rd version of The Shetland Fiddler is the way we play it on Highland pipes where the pedal tone in Bar 3 it high a, not e.

That tune is easy as pie on the Highland pipes. You'll see Highland pipe tunes with those A-a and G-g octave jumps all the time, because the whole gamut of the Highland chanter is right under your fingers and there's no "going over the break" because the notes always sit securely in the low octave.

tstermitz wrote:
My other breath practice tune is Flying Home to Shelley: https://thesession.org/tunes/17722


I'm not familiar with that tune, I just now sightread it on my Low D and it doesn't seem too bad because it's staying in the low octave in those leapy places. It's the high leaps that come back to bite me sometimes.

BTW in The Hunter's House there's a thing

B2gB aBgB

which looks like it should be tricky to play but it isn't. You never know, sometimes things sit nicely under the fingers and sometimes they don't.

_________________
Richard Cook
1978 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 7:29 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5307
Location: the Back of Beyond
Quote:
With all three of you suggesting more practice, it's going to be more practice. How would you adapt the tune to suit the whistle better or to play the run differently to make it more of a whistle tune? Long term, I think learning to play the part with the pedal tone or rocking tone is the way to go, but I am curious what you would do to rearrange the part.


Not sure practice will eventually get you to the desired effect if you stick to the given notes. You're given a fiddle version with some elements that are very much of the fiddle and sit on that instrument readily. On the whistle these may not sit so well. There are many ways to make them suit the whistle better, even with only the slightest of changes. I won't go into it too much right now but there's a lot you can do. But what you do really depends on your own playing and style. But even changing the odd passing note here and there can make it sit on the whistle a lot better.

Here is a simple example of the tune on the whistle (I'll leave it up for a day, or two) that may or may not give you an idea, or two, on a possible approach : Julia Delaney

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2020 6:07 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:25 am
Posts: 4539
Location: WV to the OC
For sure there are patterns that sit nicely under my flute/whistle fingers, and some that are awkward.

The thing about Irish reels (sticking to those for the moment) is that for most melodic situations there are a number of analogous ways to play it.

Whether some of these ways are most suitable for fiddle, or box, or banjo I cannot say!

All I know is that when I'm playing through a new tune (say, sightreading it out of a book) some seem to be from fluteplayers: everything sits well under the fingers and I can play them as they stand.

Others have clunky or overly-notey bits here and there and from habit or muscle-memory I make little changes to make them feel flutey to me.

Sometimes large sections seem all wrong- very different from how I've heard it at sessions- and for those I'll check all the various versions on thesession and get a feel for a middle-of-the-road way of playing it.

Rarely do I end up learning a reel exactly the way somebody wrote it out.

_________________
Richard Cook
1978 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2020 7:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
Posts: 5307
Location: the Back of Beyond
You need to know what you're doing but notations are just a possible configuration, one iteration and they're not set in stone. There is more than one way to get it right and at the same time there are many to get it wrong too.

To get back to that little clip, first instance it takes fAdf bdaf rather than fdad bdad which I think , makes it a lot more plausible on the whistle, arguably you could stay even closer and go fdAf bdaf but somehow the first one is more of a piper's movement so it feels like a natural choice to me but both work equally well. Each would make more sense to my mind than adopting the fiddle sequence and sits an awful lot easier under the fingers. You can, obviously, choose variations that are more removed from the fiddle line, if you want, but this is a simple way to transfer the tune to the whistle and take the strain out of it, to my mind anyway.

_________________
My brain hurts

Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: pancelticpiper, vigaglum and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.118s | 12 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)