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 Post subject: Material
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:08 am 
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I'm considering purchasing a whistle made from phenolic tubing. I was unfamiliar with this material so searched it. I found it is a "mildly acidic toxic white crystalline solid..." This sounds like a questionable material for an instrument. Any members know anything about it?

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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:06 pm 
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Afaik, phenol has been around since before WW-II. It is my understanding that the brown material used to make printed circuit boards in electronics is a phenolic resin laminate. Phenol itself is toxic if ingested, but the product called phenolic wouldn't be. It's the same with common plastics used in things you touch every day such as your toothbrush, the individual chemicals in their formulations will kill you.


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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2020 3:16 pm 
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Michael w6 wrote:
I'm considering purchasing a whistle made from phenolic tubing. I was unfamiliar with this material so searched it. I found it is a "mildly acidic toxic white crystalline solid..." This sounds like a questionable material for an instrument. Any members know anything about it?


Since it mentions "acidic" and "toxic", I'd be extremely wary of using it, since it goes immediately into your mouth, subjected to heat, water, digestive enzymes, saliva, a mix of acids and alkalies, regular scraping abrasion from teeth, etc. Who knows what could be let loose as chemical reactions, and TO ME, I don't want to hear anything from supply companies or their reckless fandom, if the chemical reactions possible in the mouth can cause the release of any of the toxins, or cause new toxins via reacting. It's not like the phenol material is the handle on a garden tool or a bicycle bell, it's going into your mouth for many long minutes, repeatedly.

My stance on that information is that it's a total "NO" until further information proves otherwise. Doesn't sound like you've yet found information stating that the material is 100% non-reactive. The whistle company is not a valid reference. Only reliable sources of chemistry information should be considered.


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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 10:52 am 
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What you found was phenol, not phenolic. It's like the difference between vinyl chloride, a nasty poisonous gas, and PVC, which they make drinking-water pipes from.

This was covered a few months ago:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=109712&hilit=phenolic

And Mack Hoover makes whistles from it:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=110165&p=1229564&hilit=phenolic#p1229564

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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 11:13 am 
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Thanks. In noodling about on the web I found some good information including the distinction between the two words. My initial question was in reference to purchasing a whistle from Mr. Hoover. It also occurred to me I tagged "phenolic" because it was a new term for me. It never occurred to me to have concern about Delrin or other synthetics.

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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:26 pm 
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Michael w6 wrote:
....It never occurred to me to have concern about Delrin or other synthetics.


Consider brass, too. It's a blend of copper and zinc. It is also alloyed with metals such as aluminum and lead, as well as arsenic, to improve machinability and corrosion resistance.

Certain woods can cause skin irritation and be moderately toxic, or worse, if ingested or their dusts are inhaled.

And don’t get me started on dihydrogen monoxide.


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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 1:30 pm 
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facet wrote:
Certain woods can cause skin irritation and be moderately toxic, or worse, if ingested or their dusts are inhaled.

This I know all too well firsthand.

facet wrote:
And don’t get me started on dihydrogen monoxide.

Oh, but do. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:08 pm 
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>> And don’t get me started on dihydrogen monoxide.

> Oh, but do.


Well, it is lunch time so I have a few minutes. Hopefully, this will create awareness and possibly reduce suffering and financial loss, and save lives.

Dihydrogen monoxide is a prime carrier of bacteria and disease and very, very dangerous in this regard! Although Delrin and resin-based whistles, and their synthetic parts appear to be impervious to it, it is capable of destroying wood whistles and causing severe corrosion on metal. It has been thoroughly documented that even a small accumulation of dihydrogen monoxide within the bore of a wind instrument will permanently alter sound if allowed to remain. Extended contact with human skin will deform the epidermis. There is a long list of toxicities with this stuff, and even death.

(edit: Before a moderator stepped in, I chose to tone this down a bit to prevent panic.)


Last edited by facet on Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:19 pm 
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What is its source and how is it coming on contact with whistles?

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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:27 pm 
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Michael w6 wrote:
What is its source and how is it coming on contact with whistles?

Dihydrogen monoxide is water, Michael. We were having a bit of fun, even though everything facet said is true. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2020 2:31 pm 
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Hahahahahaha! Very well played! As you see I did not do well in my long ago chemistry class. Your jest has cheered my day.

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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2020 10:56 pm 
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Hi,
A thread of mine is referenced above regarding buying one of Mack’s whistle of phenolic resin. I can’t say that I know with any great certainty that the stuff is as safe as delrin or brass, but it seemed safe enough given the responses. What I can say with more confidence is that I really like the whistle. It’s on the quieter side with a fairly pure tone. I got it unstained/painted so it has a simple brown color that I like. I have a number of whistles, but I find myself reaching for the Hoover pretty frequently especially when practicing at home and wanting something a bit mellower.


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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 12:45 am 
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Nanohedron wrote:
Michael w6 wrote:
What is its source and how is it coming on contact with whistles?

Dihydrogen monoxide is water, Michael. We were having a bit of fun, even though everything facet said is true. :)

Further proof that whiskey is always the safer bet.

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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 1:42 am 
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COTW: Mack´s whistles Rock! They call you to higher level of musicianship. :thumbsup:

oleorezinator: Remember Woody Woodbury´s Booze is the only Answer Club. :D

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Material
PostPosted: Thu May 07, 2020 2:00 pm 
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The responses regarding this material, unfamiliar to me, have been helpful. The question was posted in regard to Mack Hoover whistles. I ordered a D from Mr. Hoover and it was indeed sweet sounding an aesthetically pleasing. Unfortunately I had a mild but noticeable reaction to either the material or the finish. This was very disappointing as I really liked the whistles sound. Mr. Hoover was very gracious about accepting its return.

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