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New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all in
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Author:  pancelticpiper [ Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

Peter Duggan wrote:
432 tuning...it's never been a standard...


I didn't hear anybody claim that 432 was a standard. Of course it comes from a time when there was no such thing as a standard pitch, and everybody who plays Baroque music knows it.

I had the same thing happen with a whistle, back around 1980.

I ordered a High D whistle from Susato. That was back in the days when Susatos were machined out of PVC stock and had a wooden block.

When the whistle came it was very flat. It was a one-piece with no tuning slide.

Checking it I discovered it was around 435, which makes sense because Susato makes recorders and crumhorns and such.

Rather than send it back I chopped the bottom and carved out all the holes to bring it up to 440.

It had a wide bore and now it had huge holes too. It was the loudest whistle I've ever heard. I gave it to a busker who told me he couldn't find a whistle loud enough.

Author:  cavefish [ Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

pancelticpiper wrote:
Peter Duggan wrote:
432 tuning...it's never been a standard...


I didn't hear anybody claim that 432 was a standard. Of course it comes from a time when there was no such thing as a standard pitch, and everybody who plays Baroque music knows it.

I had the same thing happen with a whistle, back around 1980.

I ordered a High D whistle from Susato. That was back in the days when Susatos were machined out of PVC stock and had a wooden block.

When the whistle came it was very flat. It was a one-piece with no tuning slide.

Checking it I discovered it was around 435, which makes sense because Susato makes recorders and crumhorns and such.

Rather than send it back I chopped the bottom and carved out all the holes to bring it up to 440.

It had a wide bore and now it had huge holes too. It was the loudest whistle I've ever heard. I gave it to a busker who told me he couldn't find a whistle loud enough.
LOL , wow i bet you did carve out the holes , but i would think the holes were small at first more exact because the thin wall would not allow for much undercutting, that being said, you might have ended up with at least 8-10mm holes , still wish i could have seen it

Author:  Peter Duggan [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

cavefish wrote:
so the real motive was an unsupressed debate

No, it wasn't; it was curiosity about your declared love for 432 Hz and the need to say something about that particular fad. The possibility of debate was intended to refer to forum discussion in general, where blind acceptance of everything posted would help nobody.

Quote:
i know you had to look up Cognitive dissonance

Are you determined to keep making insulting assumptions?

pancelticpiper wrote:
I didn't hear anybody claim that 432 was a standard. Of course it comes from a time when there was no such thing as a standard pitch, and everybody who plays Baroque music knows it.

Nobody here claimed it was a standard, but we might still question why someone (not cavefish) ordered a flute to it unless influenced by the whole misplaced cult of it? Of course there have been both many standards and no standards at times, as I well know as someone with an interest in old instruments and HIP. But 432 has never been one of them.

Author:  Tor [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 4:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

My Chinese dizi are all 432Hz. Very easy to play, but otherwise utterly useless. 432 does seem to be a standard used in the east - I read something to that effect somewhere, and my dizis at least don't disprove that.

Author:  pancelticpiper [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

Wow Peter I looked up 432 and you're not kidding, it's a full-blown cult.

I studied Baroque flute in Uni and back then (1970s) there was a 435 thing, it being the official French pitch in the 18th and 19th centuries.

My flute was built to 435.

It's why getting a whistle from Susato in 435 didn't surprise me, though it was useless for ITM until modified.

Just think: I could have pulled out the head of my 435 flute so that it played three cycles flatter, and all sorts of magical things would have happened.

Author:  cavefish [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:34 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

Peter Duggan wrote:
cavefish wrote:
so the real motive was an unsupressed debate

No, it wasn't; it was curiosity about your declared love for 432 Hz and the need to say something about that particular fad. The possibility of debate was intended to refer to forum discussion in general, where blind acceptance of everything posted would help nobody.

Quote:
i know you had to look up Cognitive dissonance

Are you determined to keep making insulting assumptions?

pancelticpiper wrote:
I didn't hear anybody claim that 432 was a standard. Of course it comes from a time when there was no such thing as a standard pitch, and everybody who plays Baroque music knows it.

Nobody here claimed it was a standard, but we might still question why someone (not cavefish) ordered a flute to it unless influenced by the whole misplaced cult of it? Of course there have been both many standards and no standards at times, as I well know as someone with an interest in old instruments and HIP. But 432 has never been one of them.

well, referring to a cult, well there are those who bond with nature and trees and such and the meditation arena around 432hz, is in play, but thats not me, i will admit it is pleasing harmonically with my NAF flutes some of mine are 435hz because i used to tune them down flat as to blow in the exact note , believe it or not ,sounds are either soothing or unpleasant, that is a fact, diving further certain keys are more pleasingthan others , FACE it music has emotional values, it soothes and satisfies , not only to listeners but to players and , we know playing music is a wonderful experience that reaches far beyong listening , just imagine IF your instrument were taking away,assuming one plays one, honestly a state of depression would fall into place, music is a part of the Human factor, but as stated earlier sound and notes are a personal choice and feeling, why does one play a tuba, or a guitar or a piano, or a flugal horn or a whistle or flute Etc.----Because that person made a "choice" that soothed their ears and body and mind,, the choice satisfied,,, personally if there was not music i think we would fail as a person in some way or form, -----------music can also sway moods, anger , aggression , increase adrenaline, etc. Bagpipes ,drums instruments of war that created loyalty pride and unity , flutes victory cries, i can go on and on, but for anyone who claims something simple as a tuning deviation is useless does not "feel" the wonders and beauty of music itself :D

Author:  Sedi [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

:o damn, that kind of went of the rails, didn't it?
I thought most of the baroque stuff is played in 432. I read somewhere that people think baroque flutes sound nicer at that pitch.

Author:  Peter Duggan [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

cavefish wrote:
music has emotional values, it soothes and satisfies , not only to listeners but to players and , we know playing music is a wonderful experience that reaches far beyong listening , just imagine IF your instrument were taking away,assuming one plays one, honestly a state of depression would fall into place, music is a part of the Human factor, but as stated earlier sound and notes are a personal choice and feeling, why does one play a tuba, or a guitar or a piano, or a flugal horn or a whistle or flute Etc.----Because that person made a "choice" that soothed their ears and body and mind,, the choice satisfied,,, personally if there was not music i think we would fail as a person in some way or form, -----------music can also sway moods, anger , aggression , increase adrenaline, etc. Bagpipes ,drums instruments of war that created loyalty pride and unity , flutes victory cries, i can go on and on,

Hopefully not too much of a surprise to know that I'm with you on all of that!

Quote:
but for anyone who claims something simple as a tuning deviation is useless does not "feel" the wonders and beauty of music itself :D

But have to say that 1. I never said different tunings are useless, and 2. I will defend myself to the hilt against any suggestion that I don't feel the wonders and beauty of music itself!

I have no problem with different pitch standards, several of which I've either played at or own recordings at. If 432 Hz was, say, the accepted standard for HIP Mozart (and it's not far off what typical period orchestras are using there), I'd be the first to say that's great and something I like to hear. Likewise, if that's what we used today rather than 440/442/444 Hz, I'd have no problem with it. My beef is entirely with the spurious mathematical, in-tune-with-the-whole-cosmos, 440-is-ugly-but-this-is-sweet reasoning behind its recent cult when gullible people are quite simply getting taken in there. Or, to put it another way, the 432 Hz cult proponents are trying to tell us that 440 Hz is wrong and we should all be listening at 432 Hz, whereas I'm not suggesting that any pitch is intrinsically wrong... just that it may be supported by faulty reasoning.

Sedi wrote:
I thought most of the baroque stuff is played in 432. I read somewhere that people think baroque flutes sound nicer at that pitch.

415 Hz is the most common standard for HIP baroque, with 392 Hz also popular for some applications (especially French music, where a lower pitch was common). These two also happen to be conveniently a semitone and a tone below 440 Hz, but there have been a whole range of others such as 405 Hz and 409 Hz. I have owned 415 Hz recorders, will probably do so again, and still own a 415 Hz baroque flute. I could also argue that my 440 Hz descant and tenor recorders are simultaneously 392 Hz sixth flutes and voice flutes, but have never actually used them as such...

pancelticpiper wrote:
I studied Baroque flute in Uni and back then (1970s) there was a 435 thing, it being the official French pitch in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Check out Diapason Normal again, Richard; it's really later 19th century (adopted in 1859) and not an 18th century thing, where pitch was typically substantially lower.

cavefish wrote:
well, referring to a cult, well there are those who bond with nature and trees and such and the meditation arena around 432hz, is in play, but thats not me

All good, then! :)

Author:  cavefish [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 11:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

Peter Duggan wrote:
cavefish wrote:
music has emotional values, it soothes and satisfies , not only to listeners but to players and , we know playing music is a wonderful experience that reaches far beyong listening , just imagine IF your instrument were taking away,assuming one plays one, honestly a state of depression would fall into place, music is a part of the Human factor, but as stated earlier sound and notes are a personal choice and feeling, why does one play a tuba, or a guitar or a piano, or a flugal horn or a whistle or flute Etc.----Because that person made a "choice" that soothed their ears and body and mind,, the choice satisfied,,, personally if there was not music i think we would fail as a person in some way or form, -----------music can also sway moods, anger , aggression , increase adrenaline, etc. Bagpipes ,drums instruments of war that created loyalty pride and unity , flutes victory cries, i can go on and on,

Hopefully not too much of a surprise to know that I'm with you on all of that!

Quote:
but for anyone who claims something simple as a tuning deviation is useless does not "feel" the wonders and beauty of music itself :D

But have to say that 1. I never said different tunings are useless, and 2. I will defend myself to the hilt against any suggestion that I don't feel the wonders and beauty of music itself!

I have no problem with different pitch standards, several of which I've either played at or own recordings at. If 432 Hz was, say, the accepted standard for HIP Mozart (and it's not far off what typical period orchestras are using there), I'd be the first to say that's great and something I like to hear. Likewise, if that's what we used today rather than 440/442/444 Hz, I'd have no problem with it. My beef is entirely with the spurious mathematical, in-tune-with-the-whole-cosmos, 440-is-ugly-but-this-is-sweet reasoning behind its recent cult when gullible people are quite simply getting taken in there. Or, to put it another way, the 432 Hz cult proponents are trying to tell us that 440 Hz is wrong and we should all be listening at 432 Hz, whereas I'm not suggesting that any pitch is intrinsically wrong... just that it may be supported by faulty reasoning.

Sedi wrote:
I thought most of the baroque stuff is played in 432. I read somewhere that people think baroque flutes sound nicer at that pitch.

415 Hz is the most common standard for most HIP baroque these days, with 392 Hz also popular for some applications (especially French music, where a lower pitch was common). These two also happen to be conveniently a semitone and a tone below 440 Hz, but there have been a whole range of others such as 405 Hz and 409 Hz. I have owned 415 Hz recorders, will probably do so again, and still own a 415 Hz baroque flute. I could also argue that my 440 Hz descant and tenor recorders are simultaneously 392 Hz sixth flutes and voice flutes, but have never actually used them as such...

pancelticpiper wrote:
I studied Baroque flute in Uni and back then (1970s) there was a 435 thing, it being the official French pitch in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Check out Diapason Normal again, Richard; it's really later 19th century (adopted in 1859) and not an 18th century thing, where pitch was typically substantially lower.

cavefish wrote:
well, referring to a cult, well there are those who bond with nature and trees and such and the meditation arena around 432hz, is in play, but thats not me

All good, then! :)
yea you wouldnt be on this forum if you didnt love music ,, i know what you mean about the cult stuff , i was on a forum years ago strickly for NAF, i simply liked the NAF flute , made them, but dam if i did not get into arguements with them, all this bonding with mother earth stuff and their spirit is renewed with nature, ,, yea LOL i am am a God fearing man for sure , but mother earth lol, yea well you can see how that worked out ,, i just like the NAF flute ,, flute circles and the like, no,, dont get me wrong i love nature and music but it is simply that,,,,

Author:  Sedi [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

Oh, right, it was 415 hz. And I even was on the homepage of a maker or baroque flutes today and still remembered it wrong. D'oh! :oops: Currently contemplating getting a baroque flute for the chromatic capabilities (but in 442/440). My wife plays accordion and plays a lot of other stuff than ITM. I manage to play some on my keyless flute in D but it can be tricky. Played "Take Five" today.
But basically the only tricky note is D#/Eb (makes no appearance in "Take Five"). All the rest can be easily played with cross fingering or half-holing. So it might not be worth it getting a baroque flute.

Author:  qaantar [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 2:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

A bit off topic at this point, but.... if baroque tuning is usually more around 415 Hz, and Ab/G# is just about 415 Hz, couldn't you just use an instrument a half-step lower?

Author:  Peter Duggan [ Wed Mar 04, 2020 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

If you mean playing a modern instrument and transposing, that's just not the same because it's all about how the thing's made, how you form the notes and the timbres you get...

To give just two examples, a baroque flute has small embouchure and small holes with huge contrasts between the more open fingerings and the veiled, forked fingerings and lipping required to get some of the chromatic notes, whereas a modern Boehm flute is altogether louder and more homogenised. And a baroque violin has different neck angle*, strings, tensions, bow and bowing technique to a modern one. While you can always tune the modern violin down so you're playing in the written key (which you can't with the flute), you're by no means the whole way there yet. In short, there's a lot more to historic pitches and sounds than just transposition, and all you get from transposing on modern instruments is the sound of transposed modern instruments.

*Yes, all those priceless Stradivarius instruments have been rebuilt for more modern expectations!

Author:  qnaza [ Fri Mar 06, 2020 8:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

Many voices more informed than me about pitch...

On a simple practical note - if a tunebale whistle is in tune but can't go sufficiently sharp if needed, is it not simple physics that can separate the two parts and file away 1/2mm from the tube where it meets the top part (ie ABOVE the finger holes)? That way, I'm changing the fundamental ever so much to be higher, but the actual relationship between the notes, and how the finger-holes interfere with the nodes of the sound wave based on that fundamnetal, are still the same, just slightly higher? Voila, an in-tune-with-itself whistle which is just a little higher than before.

I base this on an understanding that shortening the tube at the bottom, below the holes, messes up the fingering tuning as well as raising the overall pitch, whilst shortening the tuning above the finger-holes raises the pitch but keeps a true relationship between fingerings. Correct?

Thoughts?

Author:  Peter Duggan [ Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

Removing (or adding!) material at either end will alter the relative tunings of the fingerings, but in different ways*. For your purpose, removing material from the top end might be better in keeping potential negative consequences insignificant, but still not possible to say without seeing and trying the instrument in question.

The same principle applies to tuning slides; there can only be one ideal position for an in-tune instrument, but they work because we shouldn't normally have to move them too far. What you're contemplating is basically a tuning slide that shortens beyond what's been provided, but note that the cavity left by the removed material may also have some effect.

*What removing material from the bottom won't do is make notes higher up the tube sharper.

Author:  qnaza [ Fri Mar 06, 2020 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: New Low D - tuneable but flat when warm and slide is all

Thanks, very interesting.

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