Beginner following some, but not all, advice

The Ultimate On-Line Whistle Community. If you find one more ultimater, let us know.
User avatar
ecadre
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:59 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Location: Coventry, England

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by ecadre »

Mr.Gumby wrote:
switching back and forth between B and D (is) remarkably easier with the xxx xxx fingering...
This is really in the eye of the beholder. I have always vented my second d' in most circumstances (though not all) and testing out what you just said, alternating d' unvented and B, I have to make a concerted effort and I must say it's not at all easier to do.

Whatever your not used doing, will be harder.
Very similar to the comment I was about to make. Playing that switch whilst venting the top hole for the second d makes literally no difference in speed to not venting. Venting that top hole is something normal (from decades of playing) and not venting feels rather odd and likely to be tripped up on in an actual tune. It's all a matter of practise.

I had a think about Peter Duggan's comment and realised that for a tiny moment this can happen for me in some tunes, or at least in "Gander in the pratie hole", and this is because of the ornamentation.
User avatar
Mr.Gumby
Posts: 6606
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: the Back of Beyond

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by Mr.Gumby »

I had a think about Peter Duggan's comment and realised that for a tiny moment this can happen for me in some tunes, or at least in "Gander in the pratie hole", and this is because of the ornamentation.
But then again, thinking about the same comment, if ever I use ornamentation on the second d, I'd always vent, less chance of the note breaking or squawking and a clearer sound as far as I am concerned. It really is what you're used to
My brain hurts

Image
User avatar
Maddie
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:31 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: My musical interests include soprano, alto, tenor & bass recorders, 12-hole alto C ocarina, and high D tin whistle.

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by Maddie »

This discussion has been a real eye-opener. It has given me an inkling of how little I know about whistle, and how much there is to learn. It's like tumbling down a rabbit hole — totally fascinating.

I've been playing whistle for two weeks, so I don't have the decades of practice that make the fingering ingrained. For now, I've decided to use the standard fingerings most of the time. I'm going to treat the fingerings that Richard explained as one would use trill fingerings on recorder. For whistle, those patterns will make some fast passages easier to play, and I'll learn them for those specific instances.
User avatar
Peter Duggan
Posts: 3223
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:39 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm not registering, I'm trying to edit my profile! The field “Tell us something.” is too short, a minimum of 100 characters is required.
Location: Kinlochleven
Contact:

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by Peter Duggan »

Mr.Gumby wrote:But then again, thinking about the same comment, if ever I use ornamentation on the second d, I'd always vent, less chance of the note breaking or squawking and a clearer sound as far as I am concerned.
While acknowledging that stability and clarity may be whistle-dependent, it's two different sounds (gracing above or below the note). Not something I do often unvented, but something I like to have in my palette for some tunes.
Maddie wrote:I'm going to treat the fingerings that Richard explained as one would use trill fingerings on recorder.
Now that's a whole new can of worms! Like, for instance, Baroque players didn't use the trill fingerings beloved of modern players and advised by Rowland-Jones ('Recorder Technique') etc. But nothing wrong with having that palette available if used appropriately!
And we in dreams behold the Hebrides.

Master of nine?
User avatar
ecadre
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:59 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Location: Coventry, England

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by ecadre »

Mr.Gumby wrote:
I had a think about Peter Duggan's comment and realised that for a tiny moment this can happen for me in some tunes, or at least in "Gander in the pratie hole", and this is because of the ornamentation.
But then again, thinking about the same comment, if ever I use ornamentation on the second d, I'd always vent, less chance of the note breaking or squawking and a clearer sound as far as I am concerned. It really is what you're used to
Actually, I've just gone through the tune slowly, and I do in fact vent the d, so there you go :party:
User avatar
ecadre
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:59 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Location: Coventry, England

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by ecadre »

ecadre wrote:
Mr.Gumby wrote:
I had a think about Peter Duggan's comment and realised that for a tiny moment this can happen for me in some tunes, or at least in "Gander in the pratie hole", and this is because of the ornamentation.
But then again, thinking about the same comment, if ever I use ornamentation on the second d, I'd always vent, less chance of the note breaking or squawking and a clearer sound as far as I am concerned. It really is what you're used to
Actually, I've just gone through the tune slowly, and I do in fact vent the d, so there you go :party:
Edited to add: I think it was because it's a quick note and the top finger doesn't move very far.
User avatar
Maddie
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:31 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: My musical interests include soprano, alto, tenor & bass recorders, 12-hole alto C ocarina, and high D tin whistle.

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by Maddie »

Next topic: I'm playing tunes from the Ochs book that go up to the second octave B, and that note is *piercing* on the high D whistle. I haven't learned to play the higher notes with a sweet sound yet. It's far from angelic. Maybe an A or G whistle would sound better during the learning process, and they aren't that expensive. Or, am I just blaming the whistle's high D key instead of the real culprit, which is my lack of experience playing the higher notes?
User avatar
StevieJ
Posts: 2189
Joined: Thu May 17, 2001 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Old hand, active in the early 2000s. Less active in recent years but still lurking from time to time.
Location: Montreal

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by StevieJ »

Maddie wrote:Next topic: I'm playing tunes from the Ochs book that go up to the second octave B, and that note is *piercing* on the high D whistle. I haven't learned to play the higher notes with a sweet sound yet. It's far from angelic. Maybe an A or G whistle would sound better during the learning process, and they aren't that expensive. Or, am I just blaming the whistle's high D key instead of the real culprit, which is my lack of experience playing the higher notes?
You just have to overcome your trepidation when it comes to the piercing quality of the high B (and high A). There is a noticeable jump in breath pressure needed above the high G. Go for it, give them all the push they want.

In the days when I taught I would get beginners to play a slow air with lots of long high Bs in it for this reason. Desensitization, you could call it.
User avatar
Squeeky Elf
Posts: 156
Joined: Tue May 29, 2012 11:50 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by Squeeky Elf »

A piercing high a and b requiring extra push is something I definitely don’t look for in a whistle.
“Go not to the Elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes.”
User avatar
Maddie
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:31 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: My musical interests include soprano, alto, tenor & bass recorders, 12-hole alto C ocarina, and high D tin whistle.

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by Maddie »

StevieJ wrote:You just have to overcome your trepidation when it comes to the piercing quality of the high B (and high A). There is a noticeable jump in breath pressure needed above the high G. Go for it, give them all the push they want.

In the days when I taught I would get beginners to play a slow air with lots of long high Bs in it for this reason. Desensitization, you could call it.
That desensitization also needs to happen for two dogs and a very tolerant husband ;-) . This is why I wondered whether a lower A or G whistle would be easier during the learning phase.

Since I posted earlier, I've measured the decibels of these high notes with a phone app (uncalibrated). It shows only 2 decibels difference between high G, A, B, and C, and I can affect that by how I blow. I'm surprised they are that close, since G and A don't bother me. As you say, Steve, I just need to overcome my apprehension of that high B.
Squeeky Elf wrote:A piercing high a and b requiring extra push is something I definitely don’t look for in a whistle.
Agreed, but I'm not ready to blame the whistle yet. At this point, it's more likely the player.

Thanks for the replies.
User avatar
Sedi
Posts: 993
Joined: Sun May 01, 2016 6:54 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Practice, practice, practice. You're never too old to learn.
Keep on fluting.
---u---o-o-o--o-o-o--
-----------------------

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by Sedi »

Decibels are logarhithmic. That's why differences seem to be small, when they are really not. A lot also depends on the specific "mix" of overtones of a whistle to determine how piercing it is. A lot of chiff makes a whistle sound more mellow while it might still have the same dB as one that appears to be more piercing.
A lower whistle might be better for practice but there are also rather quiet high Ds. Like a Carbony "quiet" model or a Killarney. One of the most "mellow" whistles I have is a Tony Dixon "low" or "alto" G with a brass body. Takes very little air too. But I think they are no longer made. But a simple and cheap Generation Bb will do the trick as well.
User avatar
Maddie
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:31 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: My musical interests include soprano, alto, tenor & bass recorders, 12-hole alto C ocarina, and high D tin whistle.

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by Maddie »

Sedi wrote:Decibels are logarhithmic. That's why differences seem to be small, when they are really not.
Ah. That explains it.
... But a simple and cheap Generation Bb will do the trick as well.
That's a good suggestion. Ordered it.
tstermitz
Posts: 527
Joined: Tue May 26, 2015 10:18 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by tstermitz »

I was going to suggest Generation Bb as well. It sits in a pleasant tonal range for the ears. Not that you get to play it in session that much, but it is easier on the dogs, wives and husbands.

The high D whistle is not really that loud. You want loud? Compare it to Highland Pipes(!) or even Uillean pipes. Its voice is meant to exist in the mix an octave above the flutes and fiddles, which might seem piercing in the kitchen, but not in public. In a loud session, you will probably find that the Generation or Killarney D whistle is not very loud, and you will be reaching for a Burke session bore.

As Stiamh says, you just need to blast away in the second register, because otherwise you don't get anything. Once you accept that, the Killarney plays sweetly up to C and D in the third register.

One other idea. If you think of the whistle as a rhythmic instrument, it isn't so piercing. Those high notes are just momentary "blips" in the fast flow of notes.
User avatar
Maddie
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:31 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: My musical interests include soprano, alto, tenor & bass recorders, 12-hole alto C ocarina, and high D tin whistle.

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by Maddie »

tstermitz wrote:... One other idea. If you think of the whistle as a rhythmic instrument, it isn't so piercing. Those high notes are just momentary "blips" in the fast flow of notes.
Great point — and one I hadn't considered until you mentioned it. I'm playing these new pieces slowly, until they are solid, before increasing the speed. The high notes don't bother me when they are just momentary blips. Right now, I can only manage short sections of the new pieces at tempo, but that's still encouraging.
User avatar
Maddie
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:31 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: My musical interests include soprano, alto, tenor & bass recorders, 12-hole alto C ocarina, and high D tin whistle.

Re: Beginner following some, but not all, advice

Post by Maddie »

I'm reporting back. What a difference a few days make. The Generation Bb has arrived, and that's the best $13 I've spent in a long while. Its high notes don't bother me at all. But even on the high D whistle, the high notes have improved. I've been following StevieJ's advice to use plenty of air. Also, one of my searches pulled up an old thread talking about playing those high notes staccato to make them less piercing. They then become momentary blips, as tstermitz explained, even in tunes that aren't up to tempo yet. All things combined, it's going much better.

I've also revisited the lazy fingers page at https://www.rogermillington.com/siamsa/ ... fting.html , and it's beginning to make a lot more sense. I'm going to incorporate some of those fingerings in the Ochs book's tunes.

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I'm sure this learning curve has been smoother with your help.
Post Reply