Making soprano D whistle - need help

[Pastor_Woodworker]

I've been trying to make a wooden soprano D whistle. Thus far, I've been able to make the whistle body, windway, ramp, etc. and have been able to consistently produce a D and the octave D at a decent volume and decent tone. However, as soon as I began to add the tone holes for the other notes of the scale, my whistle stopped making any sound at all - just the sound of wind blowing through a pipe! What has happened?!? What changed when I added the tone holes that caused the music to disappear? Can I do anything to fix this problem or do I need to start again?

[Loren]

If air is passing through the windway and getting split appropriately by the labium/ramp, you should be getting a tone of some pitch or another.

Is it possible that something shifted in the headjoint that caused the lanium to move significantly relative the airstream exiting the windway?

Did the headjoint develop a leak at the block somewhere?

Is there something stuck in the bore……

Sawdust in the windway?

[Pastor_Woodworker]

Loren,

Not that I can detect. When I drilled the tone holes, I did so in my garage, the whistle had previously been in the house. Is it possible that in the short time it took to drill the holes, the added moisture in the garage air could have swollen the wood enough to change the airflow?

[Loren]

No, that doesn’t seem in any way likely as a scenario.

Hard to really comment further without seeing the instrument.

When you look through the windway from mouthpiece opening towards the blade, where does the edge of the blade appear relative to the floor of the windway?

[Tunborough]

Loren's questions are good ones. I'll add one more ... If you close off the holes, do you still not get a clean note? (I'm going to guess that you don't.)

Photos might help, at least close-ups of the window, splitting edge, and that territory. See https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/viewt ... =5&t=23407 for some guidance on how to post photos.

[Pastor_Woodworker]

Thank you Loren and Tunborough,

It is hard for me to detect where the blade lines up, although it seems to be at the midway point of the windway. After clearing some debris out of the way and lengthening the window slightly by lightly filing the edge of the ramp, I regained some of the sound. However, now, I get a nice sound in the top half of the first octave, very little volume (basically none) in the lower half of the first octave, and none whatsoever in the second octave. When all the holes are closed there is next to no sound (although, before I drilled the holes there was a lovely D!) I will try to post some pictures.

[Loren]

There are multiple ways you could proceed at this point, but the shortest path to making a decent whistle will be to start again using as your model a wood whistle from an established maker that plays well. Measure it accurately and reproduce it as precisely as you are able to with your current skills and tools.

This is the time tested method for successfully learning the craft. By following this course of action you can:

A. Be certain you have a design that will work.

B. Know that if the whistle you make doesn’t play well it’s something you did wrong.

C. Having established A. and B. above, you can measure every aspect of your whistle’s dimensions to accurately determine where you went wrong and correct the problem, though in many cases that will mean making new parts - good motivation to make sure you get it right the first time around.

D. By following A. B. and C. above you will learn much about how and where small (and not so small) changes in dimensions can make significant changes to how an instrument performs.

E. Striving to reproduce exacting tolerances by hand and machine will greatly improve your skills, which in turn will have a significant impact on the quality of your work and results.


Or, you could just glue a chunk of wood or plastic over or under the current ramp and blade edge and fiddle with it trying to improve things….. kinda depends on your goals. If you simply like to tinker and experiment, and you don’t mind spending time on an unknown outcome (and I’m not knocking this approach if it’s what gives you pleasure) then you could try remaking the ramp and blade. But at least do so with an idea of exactly what dimensions you are shooting for, and where the blade edge should sit relative to the floor of the windway.

If you are going to take this approach you’d do well to first read a book on recorder making, as windway, window, and ramp dimensions aren’t as simple as eyeballing a whistle and then hacking out a section for a the window and filing some sort of ramp because, as you are finding, very small changes in this area can have pretty massive effects.

I’m sure you’d like to know what went wrong, and while I’ve got my suspicions, I learned during my years doing repair/restoration work on recorders, that things aren’t always what you’d expect based on owners’ descriptions, so basically without having the instrument in hand, I don’t think I’ll speculate. Photos might help, and I’ll have a look if you post some.

Final note, I assume you have some sort of decent whistle in your possession already. Hold it up to the light with the bottom of the whistle facing the light source and look through the windway towards the blade edge, note the position of the blade edge relative to the floor of the windway. Compare this to your whistle. Be aware that this is a critical relationship, as is the distance from the windway exit to the edge of the blade. Windway height, length, and shape are also important, as are ramp length, width and angle, but if you put the blade edge too high or too low relative to windway floor, or too close/too far from the windway exit, you can easily end up with something that isn’t going to play in any sort of satisfying fashion. You really need to have very specific dimensions you’re shooting for in these areas.

[Pastor_Woodworker]

Thank you Loren,

This is good advice. I'll look into getting a decent whistle which I can attempt to copy.

[Narzog]

I agree with buying good whistles being one of the best things you can do as a maker. It sounds weird because a lot of the time someone is making them to save money by not having to buy them. But theres no reason to re invent the wheel. You could spend hundreds or thousands of hours making whistles and trying to figure out what's ideal and what works well. Or you could get one or a few good ones, and study those to figure out what they do and why they play that way. Then you can make yours and already know what works, taking inspiration from them. Then you can make changes you may want to try and get the sound or playability you are going for. Which will still take time and experimentation, but significantly less when you are taking inspiration from quality makers and can see what they did.

[Tommy]

It may have developed a crack in the tone tube and is leaking. Did you seal the ID of the tone tube with a non food grade bore oil? Almond oil and olive oil or wood wind bore oil from a music store. Important that it is non food grade. If it is a food grade oil it could turn rancid.
Use a small pen flash light to shine inside the tone tube in a dark room, and look for light coming through. Most cracks will be visible this way. I like to use a low voltage LED light with wires attached to a dry cell. Then move light inside the tone tube.

Several ways to repair a crack. I prefer to us very thin super glue. Touch the tip of applicator to middle of crack and you will see the thin super glue run to both ends. If there is excess do not try to wipe off, the rag or paper towel will stick to the tone tube. Wait till the glue is dry and scrape and sand to desired finish. Very thin super glue can be found at a hobby store. I also keep CA remover UN_CURE on hand In case the super glue goes where it is not wanted. It only took a few times of glueing fingers together to catch on to work very carefully with super glue.





OK........ naysayers flame on!

[RoberTunes]

I wonder a variety of things:
1) if your original mouthpiece area design was just on the edge of successfully producing a tone in the first place, and the addition of tone holes simply adjusted whistle response outside of it's capacity to function.
or,
2) something was adjusted in the mouthpiece/window area having nothing to do with the tone holes. I like Loren's idea that if this area was designed correctly, similar to a sports whistle, no matter what kind of tube or tone holes you then added to it, it would still make consistent clear sound.
or,
3) The use of wood, which is to some small degree sensitive to humidity and temperature and it's own internal integrity possibly changing over time, depending on the wood type. This could
affect the physical shaping of the windway, window, and the position and shape of the blade edge, and if the wood itself is changing near the window area, getting anything very much off the ideal can
ruin the tone. If you used some non-absorbent hard wood like maple or rosewood or blackwood, etc., this should be a minimal, but real concern. Question: was the exact piece of wood you used,
aged, kiln dried or otherwise treated to help it be more stable over time? Or is it from a regular, quick "forest to lumberyard" supply? What type of wood is it?
If I had a lathe I'd be making whistles and flutes, and would be
very careful when selecting wood for whistles.

[RoberTunes]

Thank you Loren and Tunborough,

It is hard for me to detect where the blade lines up, although it seems to be at the midway point of the windway. After clearing some debris out of the way and lengthening the window slightly by lightly filing the edge of the ramp, I regained some of the sound. However, now, I get a nice sound in the top half of the first octave, very little volume (basically none) in the lower half of the first octave, and none whatsoever in the second octave. When all the holes are closed there is next to no sound (although, before I drilled the holes there was a lovely D!) I will try to post some pictures.

If the width of the window was too narrow to begin with, that would make any tone production difficult or prohibited. Slightly enlarging the window in that case, would I think start increasing the availability of the higher notes, and leave lower notes weak. From your notes, it seems this is perhaps what happened. Getting the diameter of the window correct to allow a balanced response for lowest to high notes, is a careful craft, and you must still have the exact positioning of the blade to the windway, correct. If the blade was correctly set to begin with, in terms of height or I mean the positioning of the blade edge relative to the airflow exiting the windway, then filing the blade edge must not change that, but simply move the blade away from the windway horizontally along the length of the whistle, but not vertically, or functioning can be ruined. It would be good to see some "before and after" pictures of what was going on, to clarify all this.

[Pastor_Woodworker]

Thank you RoberTunes.

I have managed now to make two wooden D whistles that play in tune for two octaves. One of which has a narrower windway and a lovely tone. The other has a wider windway (my attempt to increase the volume) and a breathier tone. However, both are quite soft. I'm looking to make a third which would hopefully play louder. What should I try for in order to increase the volume? Does the bore diameter affect the volume? I've used a 1/2 inch bore on my first two whistles, would widening the bore help or hinder?

[Narzog]

Thank you RoberTunes.

I have managed now to make two wooden D whistles that play in tune for two octaves. One of which has a narrower windway and a lovely tone. The other has a wider windway (my attempt to increase the volume) and a breathier tone. However, both are quite soft. I'm looking to make a third which would hopefully play louder. What should I try for in order to increase the volume? Does the bore diameter affect the volume? I've used a 1/2 inch bore on my first two whistles, would widening the bore help or hinder?

People often say that a wider bore is louder, but I find theres some fine print. A wider bore needs a wider windway to be just as loud, usually. My example being my MK vs Reyburn low D. The Reyburn is a bigger bore, with a much wider windway. The Reyburn is maybe slightly louder but the difference is very minimal. Once I made a big bore low C# with the windway width of my MK low D, and it was way too quiet. My example two, my Reyburn small bore G has a really narrow windway. But its also only a tad quieter than average, because the small bore doesnt need a wide windway.

That said theres several makers who make bigger bore extra loud versions so theres obviously something I'm missing that makes larger bore better for being loud. In my case the bigger bore are usually lower. And lower is quieter. So for a high D, bigger and wider but not lower, will probobly be louder.

How wide is your windway currently? 1/2 bore seems pretty normal. You could also try bigger holes tone holes. Bigger bore also makes more room for a wider windway and bigger holes. Could be worth trying and comparing.

[David Cooper]

However, as soon as I began to add the tone holes for the other notes of the scale, my whistle stopped making any sound at all - just the sound of wind blowing through a pipe!

That's the same problem I've had with the the last two prototype quenas that I've made: they produced two beautiful notes an octave apart until I started making the holes, but by the time all the holes were there, the sound quality had turned more to hiss than whistle. I've now managed to recover them both by reducing the window length (which is easy with a quena as you just file the end down to get your lips closer to the wedge, though it takes a lot of courage to make each adjustment when you know you can't reverse it). The mere presence of the holes must disturb the sound waves sufficiently to reduce the range of viable window lengths, so perhaps starting out with a movable fipple would help to avoid this problem and help nail down the ideal position for it.