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 Post subject: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:33 am 
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This may sound like a crazy question and maybe I'm just having a brain drain day, but I am trying to figure out the simple technique for this situation.

If you have a Single Note cut, a single High E note, not followed by another High E note, on a D whistle and you cut with a High G, do you do that by the normal way of cutting, meaning with fingers ready to play an E but lifting the G finger to cut or do you play the G and then put fingers down to play the E, like you might in a grace note situation. Does it matter which way you do it? I have been putting fingers down for the E and cutting by lifting the G finger.

Hope this makes sense. I am a classical (legit) player and I understand cuts and am going through the Online Academy of Irish Music. In their version of O'Keefe's Dream, measure 5, they have a cut on a single High E and they use a grace note to notate a cut on the E with a G.

Just trying to get my Irish technique right!


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:28 am 
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First, here's a short video I did showing cuts, pats, and rolls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfu_fDUyNHs

I'm not quite sure of the exact meaning your question but with cuts (upper gracenotes) it's usually just a single finger doing the cutting.

So cutting E with G

xxx xxo
xxx oxo
xxx xxo

Now, two fingers would be raised, in effect, if going from F# to E with a G cut:

xxx xoo
xxx ooo
xxx xxo

Likewise, going from E to F# with a G cut:

xxx xxo
xxx ooo
xxx xoo

In reality the cutting finger might move a split-second before the note-change finger moves- what you don't want is the note-change finger moving a split-second before the cutting finger does, which will sound sloppy.

About using the G finger to cut E, various players differ on that. When I started playing (1970s) the people I saw play around me tended to use the A finger to cut the entire bottom hand, so cutting E would be

xxx xxo
xxo xxo
xxx xxo

One explanation I heard over the years was that this divided the work in doing rolls between the two hands, which would be the case for rolls on E, F#, and G.

And for sure the same-hand rolls on A and B often give beginners more problems than the two-hand rolls on E, F#, and G.

However, on some whistles and flutes the A cut on E in the 2nd octave is a bit muddy, and the G cut sounds better.

Sticking with your G cut, another example is going from D to E with a G cut:

xxx xxx
xxx oxo
xxx xxo

with an A cut:

xxx xxx
xxo xxo
xxx xxo

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1978 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:59 am 
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I sure do appreciate Richard's detailed explanations on this sort of thing! I find it very helpful to see examples like this with the fingerings.

From the OP:
Matthewlawson3 wrote:
If you have a Single Note cut, a single High E note, not followed by another High E note, on a D whistle and you cut with a High G, do you do that by the normal way of cutting, meaning with fingers ready to play an E but lifting the G finger to cut or do you play the G and then put fingers down to play the E, like you might in a grace note situation. Does it matter which way you do it? I have been putting fingers down for the E and cutting by lifting the G finger.


This sort of thing has been confusing for me, too, particularly since not every player cuts with the same fingers, the notation for cuts isn't completely standardized, and terms like "grace note" mean different things to different people.

One factor to consider is the note preceding the note to be cut. In your example, you're probably not going to cut your E with the same finger if the preceding note is a G or higher in the same octave than you would for lower notes.

Assuming the preceding note isn't more than one scale step higher, my cut fingering, as Richard shows, would be:

xxx oxo

But I wouldn't say that I'm playing a G at that point. Instead, that's where my fingers are when I'm starting to play the E, with my lower hand index finger coming down immediately to make the E:

xxx xxo

I guess my point is that I find it confusing to put a note name to the cut itself. It's more straightforward to me to think of the cut as a finger movement that's not associated with a pitch. I.e. an E note is cut by my lower hand's index finger being off its hole at the start of the E, and then instantaneously coming down on its hole. (Except if the preceding note is is a G or above in the same octave as the E.)

Not sure if that's helpful, but it clarifies things for me a bit.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:14 pm 
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Thank you gentlemen for your explanations. I am sorry that I have not been as clear. Let me try it with the XO method.

On a High D whistle, I usually cut an E with the G like

XXX XXO
XXO XXO
XXX XXO

That's what I was taught by the Online Academy of Irish Music. However, I know people use different cuts.


My question involves single note cutting an E note with G. There is a rest preceding the E.

For that, is the way I'm doing it okay or do you actually do a quick G to E like this
XXX OOO
XXX XXO

Hope this makes sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:42 pm 
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Quote:
On a High D whistle, I usually cut an E with the G like

XXX XXO
XXO XXO
XXX XXO


I think here terminological confusion sets in: written that would be {A} E you open (and effectively briefly sound) the A in that movement, so you cut with A there.

Richard already explained cutting with G:

Quote:
So cutting E with G

xxx xxo
xxx oxo
xxx xxo

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:41 pm 
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While your way:

XXX OOO
XXX XXO

works, I think more common, and preferable, would be either:

XXO XXO
XXX XXO

or:

XXX OXO
XXX XXO

the advantage being economy of motion, moving just one finger instead of two. I can't do a comparison at the moment, but I imagine the first technique would make it more difficult for me to get the crisp, nearly instantaneous effect that I usually want in a cut.


Last edited by JackJ on Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:48 pm 
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Quote:
... do you play the G and then put fingers down to play the E, like you might in a grace note situation...


I don't think I would ever do that, even if I were just gracing a single E and sounding the grace note first. I think all my fingers would be in position before lifting a finger to sound the grace.

As Mr. G has pointed out, lifting the "G finger" sounds a grace note of A, or would sound an A, albeit a slightly flat A, if it were long enough for you to discern the pitch.

However I have just tried what you describe: playing G and then whacking down the two bottom hand fingers to sound an E. It gives a slightly crisper sound on the whistle I have lying on my desk (a low G). No reason not to do it, if you like the sound, even if nobody else does it (Mind you I don't actually know whether anyone else does or doesn't, only that I don't).

Even crisper if you sound an A and then whack down all the fingers you need for E :)

(cross-posted with JackJ)


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:10 pm 
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StevieJ wrote:
Quote:
... do you play the G and then put fingers down to play the E, like you might in a grace note situation...


I don't think I would ever do that, even if I were just gracing a single E and sounding the grace note first. I think all my fingers would be in position before lifting a finger to sound the grace.

As Mr. G has pointed out, lifting the "G finger" sounds a grace note of A, or would sound an A, albeit a slightly flat A, if it were long enough for you to discern the pitch.

However I have just tried what you describe: playing G and then whacking down the two bottom hand fingers to sound an E. It gives a slightly crisper sound on the whistle I have lying on my desk (a low G). No reason not to do it, if you like the sound, even if nobody else does it (Mind you I don't actually know whether anyone else does or doesn't, only that I don't).

Even crisper if you sound an A and then whack down all the fingers you need for E :)

(cross-posted with JackJ)


I think I now understand the confusion. I was unaware that cutting the E on a High D whistle with

XXO XXO

sounds an A.

When I say I cut E with G. I mean that I lift the G finger to cut E like this


XXX XXO
XXO XXO
XXX XXO

That is what I do normally. I was taught that way.

Sorry for the confusion.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:30 pm 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
Quote:
On a High D whistle, I usually cut an E with the G like

XXX XXO
XXO XXO
XXX XXO


I think here terminological confusion sets in: written that would be {A} E you open (and effectively briefly sound) the A in that movement, so you cut with A there.

Richard already explained cutting with G:

Quote:
So cutting E with G

xxx xxo
xxx oxo
xxx xxo



I now understand what you are saying. I'm talking about lifting the G finger to cut the E.

XXX XXO
XXO XXO
XXX XXO

I hadn't paid attention to what sounded when the G finger was lifted.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:53 pm 
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Quote:
When I say I cut E with G. I mean that I lift the G finger to cut E like this


XXX XXO
XXO XXO
XXX XXO



More confusion, but you aren't the first or the last to end up there, don't worry.

I should point out though that I learned my faint grasp of terminology through the pipes and piping tutors, if they mention the name of the finger at all, would call this cutting with the A finger, after the note that is sounded by lifting the finger (See both the Armagh pipers and Seamus Ennis tutors). I am not completely sure how whistlers and fluteplayers would use the terminology but I have always assumed they would be aligned with pipers (and I have never had my wrist slapped before the internet) but I have come to realise on the internet users from outside the tradition have different usage i.e. naming the finger after the note sounded when it is down. So there you have it.


[crossposted]

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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 4:19 pm 
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I think all the responders ahead of me have given you great advice, but just out of curiosity, what tutor and lesson is O'Keefe's Dream. I have the OAIM but it isn't very cooperative when you try to search as specific tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:09 pm 
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busterbill wrote:
I think all the responders ahead of me have given you great advice, but just out of curiosity, what tutor and lesson is O'Keefe's Dream. I have the OAIM but it isn't very cooperative when you try to search as specific tune.


Again, I apologize for the confusion and very much appreciate all the information given. I do come to Tin Whistle from the background of a clarinet player, but I have been played Tin Whistle off and on for the last 10 years.

O'Keefe's Dream is found at the OAIM in Tin Whistle Basics, Lesson 14, taught by Kirsten Allstaff.


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:19 pm 
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If I have the OAIM is there any reason to get a Blayne Chastain lessons subscription as well?


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:16 am 
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One thing that's fogged the discussion here is the different terminology that "legit" woodwind players (Boehm flute/sax/clarinet/etc) tend to use versus what ITM woodwind players (and Highland pipers) tend to use.

On the pipes (uilleann and Highland) people tend to name each hole by the note which emits from it; in "legit" woodwind practice people tend to name each hole by the note which emits from the next-lower hole.

Or put another way, trad players name the hole by the note which occurs when you lift the finger covering that hole, while "legit" practice is to name the hole by the note which occurs when you put down the finger.

To clear all this up, for a trad player:

xxx xxo the "E" finger lifted/ the "E" hole opened

xxo xxx the "A" finger lifted/ the "A" hole opened (as in making an "A" cut on D)

Also handy is the numbering of the holes. On a whistle "Hole 1" is the top hole, from which C# and C emit. "Hole 5" is the hole from which F# emits.

So going down the whistle from the hole closest to the mouthpiece:

OOO OOO Hole 1, C hole, C finger (usually just called "C" though of course C and C# both emit from this hole)

OOO OOO Hole 2, B hole, B finger

OOO OOO Hole 3, A hole, A finger

OOO OOO Hole 4, G hole, G finger

OOO OOO Hole 5, F hole, F finger (yes it's F# but the sharp is usually omitted when referring to this hole)

OOO OOO Hole 6, E hole, E finger

Hopefully this will clear up confusion! (Or maybe, create more!)

_________________
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1978 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle


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 Post subject: Re: Cutting Question
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 6:20 am 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
One thing that's fogged the discussion here is the different terminology that "legit" woodwind players (Boehm flute/sax/clarinet/etc) tend to use versus what ITM woodwind players (and Highland pipers) tend to use.

On the pipes (uilleann and Highland) people tend to name each hole by the note which emits from it; in "legit" woodwind practice people tend to name each hole by the note which emits from the next-lower hole.

Or put another way, trad players name the hole by the note which occurs when you lift the finger covering that hole, while "legit" practice is to name the hole by the note which occurs when you put down the finger.

To clear all this up, for a trad player:

xxx xxo the "E" finger lifted/ the "E" hole opened

xxo xxx the "A" finger lifted/ the "A" hole opened (as in making an "A" cut on D)

Also handy is the numbering of the holes. On a whistle "Hole 1" is the top hole, from which C# and C emit. "Hole 5" is the hole from which F# emits.

So going down the whistle from the hole closest to the mouthpiece:

OOO OOO Hole 1, C hole, C finger (usually just called "C" though of course C and C# both emit from this hole)

OOO OOO Hole 2, B hole, B finger

OOO OOO Hole 3, A hole, A finger

OOO OOO Hole 4, G hole, G finger

OOO OOO Hole 5, F hole, F finger (yes it's F# but the sharp is usually omitted when referring to this hole)

OOO OOO Hole 6, E hole, E finger

Hopefully this will clear up confusion! (Or maybe, create more!)


Thank you for this. Coming from a clarinet background, I was unaware of this difference. It would be a foreign concept for any clarinet player if you said that the E key on the clarinet is called the F because on clarinet or other classical instruments players usually learn by what Richard said, that is, "name the hole by the note which occurs when you put down the finger. "

I play and have played clarinet from 6th grade all the way through the end of college/university and even minored in music and took music theory classes and somehow many things in ITM never came up at all hahaha. I've had to learn many new things, but I find it interesting to think about the different paths each "world" took. Most, if not all, of my teachers and professors I am sure are not aware of many of the things in ITM. Though I do know a composer who may be aware of different Irish articulations such as the cut and strike and rolls.


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