Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

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Cyberknight
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Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by Cyberknight »

I was wondering if anyone on here had a lot of experience playing Goldie whistles, and if people could give me any insights about them.

I'm specifically wondering 1) how loud they are on the very lowest end of the first octave, and 2) whether Goldie tends to be open to customization.

I really like Susatos because of the volume you get in the first octave, and I've never encountered anything so good for playing at sessions when there's a tune that doesn't go very high. But I also like chromatic whistles, so I'm looking for some way to get something that is both very loud and has some extra holes in it so it can get accidentals easily. Since Goldie apparently used to make 10-hole chromatic whistles some 20 years ago or so, I wondered if he might be open to doing this.

My other option would be modifying my Susato. If anyone has any experience modifying plastic instruments by drilling extra holes in them and has any advice for me, that would also be much appreciated!

(And before anyone suggests it: no, I'm not looking for a recorder :P ).
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by pancelticpiper »

About Susatos, luckily the plastic is very easy to carve and drill.

That, and the fact that they're relatively inexpensive, make them the perfect candidate for your experimentations.

I used to have Susatos in every key including rare keys like Ab and Gb.

While the scales on their Low D's were good, I found that in the more unusual keys the scale of each Susato was a law unto itself. Wanting all my whistles to have in-tune scales meant I got a lot of experience carving holes and chopping barrels on Susatos of many sizes.

And I did add a thumb-hole to one, and yes that plastic drills beautifully.

In the end I just didn't think Susatos played as well as some of the high-quality alloy whistles like Goldie, Burke, Reviol, MK, and Reyburn to name a few.

I'm a Colin Goldie person now! I have Goldies in Low C, Low D, and mezzo F and all of them are superb players.

Goldies have nice strong low notes including the "bell note" and the voicing is very well balanced overall.

I do know that in the past Colin has taken on some custom projects, so I would give him a call and have a chat.
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Cyberknight
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by Cyberknight »

pancelticpiper wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 3:53 am About Susatos, luckily the plastic is very easy to carve and drill.

That, and the fact that they're relatively inexpensive, make them the perfect candidate for your experimentations.

I used to have Susatos in every key including rare keys like Ab and Gb.

While the scales on their Low D's were good, I found that in the more unusual keys the scale of each Susato was a law unto itself. Wanting all my whistles to have in-tune scales meant I got a lot of experience carving holes and chopping barrels on Susatos of many sizes.

And I did add a thumb-hole to one, and yes that plastic drills beautifully.

In the end I just didn't think Susatos played as well as some of the high-quality alloy whistles like Goldie, Burke, Reviol, MK, and Reyburn to name a few.

I'm a Colin Goldie person now! I have Goldies in Low C, Low D, and mezzo F and all of them are superb players.

Goldies have nice strong low notes including the "bell note" and the voicing is very well balanced overall.

I do know that in the past Colin has taken on some custom projects, so I would give him a call and have a chat.
Excellent, thanks for the info! A couple more questions:

First, how do Goldies handle the upper octave? Are they able to play relatively quietly all the way up to, say, a B? Is there any screechiness up there?

Second, has anyone on this forum ever measured decibels of these instruments? I'm curious as to exactly how loud Goldies are in the lower octave compared to Susatos. Is there a "decibel thread" somewhere?

Third, do you recommend an "eyeball it and keep modifying it till it works" approach? For example, I would love an F natural hole. I know generally where F natural holes should go (exactly opposite the E hole). Is it a dreadful idea to begin by drilling an infinitesimal hole in that place, and gradually making it bigger and bigger till I get an in-tune F natural in both octaves with the hole open?

I have zero experience modifying a whistle, so sorry if this is a dumb question.
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by Moof »

It might take some time to get an appointment, but Colin likes to speak to people even if they're ordering one of his standard whistles, and will play them for you so you can judge for yourself.

One of the factors (at least with his low whistles) is that he makes them with different back pressures and blowing characteristics, so questions about how they handle high notes might not be entirely straightforward because they're all customised to some degree.

I've only got wide-bore whistles, and all of them have that characteristic of the top end sounding louder than the bottom, it's just the nature of the beast. I don't know whether it applies quite so much to high whistles, though, as I don't play them.
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by Mr.Gumby »

I don't know whether it applies quite so much to high whistles, though

It does, it's the price of wanting louder and louder whistles.
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by Peter Duggan »

Cyberknight wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 6:34 am I know generally where F natural holes should go (exactly opposite the E hole).
That cannot be optimum unless you want a duplicate E hole! Also, what do you mean by the E hole: the one that's open to sound E or the lowest one fingered? (The former is correct, but I suspect you mean the latter.)
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by RoberTunes »

Peter Duggan wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 11:24 am
Cyberknight wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 6:34 am I know generally where F natural holes should go (exactly opposite the E hole).
That cannot be optimum unless you want a duplicate E hole! Also, what do you mean by the E hole: the one that's open to sound E or the lowest one fingered? (The former is correct, but I suspect you mean the latter.)
I also thought that can't be right. If you add a hole opposite to where one already is, it just adds to the same frequency, it adjusts the tube length and frequency heard, to duplicate what was already going on. Once you drill into a Susato, that plastic won't jump back on after you make a mistake. There needs to be a chart somewhere showing at what location and what size the hole should be, considering bore size, wall width, key, what note is involved, any issue with undercutting(?) tone holes, etc. It's a precise science. Has anyone such a chart to offer?
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by Cyberknight »

Peter Duggan wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 11:24 am
Cyberknight wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 6:34 am I know generally where F natural holes should go (exactly opposite the E hole).
That cannot be optimum unless you want a duplicate E hole! Also, what do you mean by the E hole: the one that's open to sound E or the lowest one fingered? (The former is correct, but I suspect you mean the latter.)
Sorry, I goofed up there! "E hole" was vague/bad terminology. It would be more accurate to call it the "F sharp hole," i.e. the hole that you open to play an F sharp, but close to play an E. I'm referring to the hole that's covered by your right hand middle finger. The F natural hole should be directly opposite it, so that if you finger an E but lift your bottom thumb, it changes the E into an F natural.
Last edited by Cyberknight on Fri May 19, 2023 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by Cyberknight »

RoberTunes wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 11:41 am
Peter Duggan wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 11:24 am
Cyberknight wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 6:34 am I know generally where F natural holes should go (exactly opposite the E hole).
That cannot be optimum unless you want a duplicate E hole! Also, what do you mean by the E hole: the one that's open to sound E or the lowest one fingered? (The former is correct, but I suspect you mean the latter.)
I also thought that can't be right. If you add a hole opposite to where one already is, it just adds to the same frequency, it adjusts the tube length and frequency heard, to duplicate what was already going on. Once you drill into a Susato, that plastic won't jump back on after you make a mistake. There needs to be a chart somewhere showing at what location and what size the hole should be, considering bore size, wall width, key, what note is involved, any issue with undercutting(?) tone holes, etc. It's a precise science. Has anyone such a chart to offer?
The idea is that there's a hole you can open to play an F#, but if you open a different, smaller hole that's opposite that bigger hole, you'll play an F natural instead...it has the exact same effect as if you were half-holing.

So if you want to add an F natural hole to a 6-hole whistle, it should be exactly opposite the second-to-bottom tone hole on your instrument. It's covered by your thumb.
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by pancelticpiper »

There is a lower-hand hole arrangement that does two good things:

1) puts the E hole in a more acoustically correct location, further down the tube, yet being no strain to finger

2) gives an in-tune F natural right under your usual fingers.

It's going to sound like crazy talk, but it's standard practice in some flute traditions.

And that's to have four equally-sized and equally-spaced finger holes for your lower hand.

As you lift them one at a time you get

xxx|xxxx "bottom D"
xxx|xxxo E
xxx|xxoo F natural
xxx|xooo F sharp
xxx|ooxo G (using the lower-hand ring finger as an "anchor" finger)

Balkan and "near eastern" flutes are usually like that.

I did a self-made PVC flute using that system and I quickly got used to having that lower-hand ring finger down most of the time, and using the lower-hand little finger on the E hole.

Here you can see how relaxed the lower hand is with this four-even-hole setup. If the Kaval is in D (I don't have perfect pitch) then raising just the little finger is E and lifting the little and ring fingers is F natural.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBOyuSzCQ3Q
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by Cyberknight »

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but I'm seriously considering buying a Goldie whistle at this point.

I was wondering if anyone who owns both a Goldie whistle AND a Susato Kildare (assuming such a person exists on here) would be willing to do a quick test to see which one can play louder in the first octave (particularly the lower end of the first octave) without jumping octaves. I'm assuming the Kildare would win, but I'm also wondering *by how much* it would win. If anyone would be willing to use a decibel meter and figure this out for me, I'd be extremely grateful!
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by pancelticpiper »

Cyberknight wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 6:34 am
First, how do Goldies handle the upper octave? Are they able to play relatively quietly all the way up to, say, a B? Is there any screechiness up there?
Speaking only about Low D whistles, I bought and borrowed a large number of different makers' Low Ds and put them through their paces.

Yes High B is the note most prone to being "shouty" as I call it, usually louder than the 2nd octave notes below it, and oftentimes with a slightly rougher timbre.

Also High B, on many Low Ds, requires precise blowing, because if you underblow it just a tad the tone gets much rougher.

What I found, evaluating so many Low D's, is that the Achillies' Heel of Low Ds is the balance between Low E and High B.

So, the whistles with the most civilised High B oftentimes have weak Low E, and whistles with the strongest Low E oftentimes have the loudest roughest High B.

I really like how Colin Goldie handles this ever-present aspect of Low D whistles (there's no cure, just compromise). The Low E is strong yet the High B isn't overly touchy.
Cyberknight wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 6:34 am Second, has anyone on this forum ever measured decibels of these instruments? I'm curious as to exactly how loud Goldies are in the lower octave compared to Susatos. Is there a "decibel thread" somewhere?
I did some decibel measurements during a time when I owned four makes of Low D, but I don't think I have those numbers anymore. The main takeaway was that all the Low Ds were pretty much the same in having a large volume differential between the quietest notes and the loudest note (High B).
Cyberknight wrote: Fri May 19, 2023 6:34 am Third, do you recommend an "eyeball it and keep modifying it till it works" approach?
Yep that's exactly what I do, educated guesses.
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by Moof »

pancelticpiper wrote: Thu Nov 02, 2023 5:15 am The main takeaway was that all the Low Ds were pretty much the same in having a large volume differential between the quietest notes and the loudest note (High B).
My experience too.

Whilst there is still a significant difference between the low E and high B, the best of my particular bunch (MK Pro, Goldie, Howard, Goldfinch) on that one metric is the plastic Goldfinch. It lacks the classic low whistle tone, but it's as smooth as butter.

I haven't played any of the plastic Susatos myself, but I know someone who plays their high C and D. They don't have the resonant brass tone that I like best, but the top notes are somehow less piercing in the same way as the Goldfinch low whistle.
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Re: Goldie Whistles (+ a Susato customization question)

Post by Cyberknight »

Thanks for the insights! I still hope to find someone on here who owns a high D Goldie whistle, but it's nice to hear about Goldie low whistles nonetheless.
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