Chiff and Fipple Forums

A while ago I stumbled upon cross fingerings for G# and Bb on a D whistle.

G#: XXOXXX Bb: XOXXXO

These work really well on my one D whistle (Tony Dixon DX005 polymer whistle with brass slide).

However, these pretty much do not work on most of my other whistles (Generations and Tony Dixon Trads in brass). I can barely hit the intended notes by blowing ridiculously softly you can barely hear it.

Why this inconsistency across D whistles? I assume bore size, hole size / placement, and head construction all affect it?

Anyone else have experience messing around with these particular cross fingerings? Am I the only one who has found I can only use them on certain specific whistles?

Is there a way to know what brands / models of whistle will be capable of utilizing these cross fingerings without extensive trial and error (expensive when you don't have a good local whistle shop)?

From my experience those fingerings only work on whistles with a thick wall -- like the Dixon you mentioned, or similar plastic whistles, like Susatos. It also works on the Dixon DX204 and on alloy whistles with equally thick walls, like a Chieftain or Shearwater and probably on other alloy whistles like Alba or Goldie whistles, etc. It doesn't work ony any thin-walled whistles like Generations, Feadogs, Clarkes or Carbony, etc.
Edit: it will probably also work on wooden whistles.

Sedi wrote:From my experience those fingerings only work on whistles with a thick wall -- like the Dixon you mentioned, or similar plastic whistles, like Susatos. It also works on the Dixon DX204 and on alloy whistles with equally thick walls, like a Chieftain or Shearwater and probably on other alloy whistles like Alba or Goldie whistles, etc. It doesn't work ony any thin-walled whistles like Generations, Feadogs, Clarkes or Carbony, etc.
Edit: it will probably also work on wooden whistles.

Interesting! Thanks! I never would have thought that the wall thickness would be the cause. But I guess that seems consistent so far with what I've observed...

I always half-hole both of those notes on the whistle.

Probably better as it works on every whistle.

eskin wrote:I always half-hole both of those notes on the whistle.

That's definitely fine... Though I am finding the cross fingerings easier to do at speed. Half holing at speed is really a challenge. As far as speed goes, the cross fingerings feel just a bit different from a C nat, and you can put your fingers down at normal pressure and angle over the holes.

I guess quickly half placing a finger is just tricky for me (at this point anyway ... Playing whistle not quite a year).

Sedi wrote:From my experience those fingerings only work on whistles with a thick wall ....... it will probably also work on wooden whistles.

Seem to play a reasonable note on a Bleazey low D in the low octave - but in the upper octave they give pitches higher than expected.

XXOXXX sounds sharp of A - maybe in Bb territory
XOXXXO sounds sharp of B - maybe Cnat

I will check these with a tuner sometime - if they are accurate I might use them. Different Cnat in the higher octave may open up possibilities.

I am not sure how much use G# and Bb are to me on a D whistle though.

DrPhill wrote:but in the upper octave they give pitches higher than expected.

Forked fingerings always do. You need to take off one or more fingers from below the open hole for the second register. Exactly which varies from whistle to whistle.

I sort of expected that Peter, but I was not expecting the pitch of XXOXXX to be higher than XXOOOO, and the pitch of XOXXXO to be higher than XOOOOO.

Shows how much I know, doesn't it.

On this topic (more/less), I never have gotten around to trying one of the keyed Sweet whistles. Has anyone played one of those? Do they work well?

I did a search and found several old discussions. Synopsis: While the keyed Sweet whistle gets very good general reviews, the high A and B take a lot of air/pressure and are overly loud.



-Brett

Bretton wrote:On this topic (more/less), I never have gotten around to trying one of the keyed Sweet whistles. Has anyone played one of those? Do they work well?


-Brett

Who makes / sells these? What notes do the keys give?

DrPhill wrote:

Sedi wrote: I am not sure how much use G# and Bb are to me on a D whistle though.

They are mainly helpful when you try to play non-folk music on a whistle (hymns, etc. in my case).

DrPhill wrote:I sort of expected that Peter, but I was not expecting the pitch of XXOXXX to be higher than XXOOOO, and the pitch of XOXXXO to be higher than XOOOOO.

They're sharp third harmonics of bell D and low E respectively, vented and sharpened by the open holes. You can verify this by slurring from the fundamental, lifting the finger but barely raising the breath pressure, when they'll still speak at the 12th because of the vent but come back into tune through the lower pressure.

zaulden wrote: Who makes / sells these? What notes do the keys give?

Zaulden: I'm not sure they're being made any more. They were made by Ralph Sweet (Sweetheart Flute Company: http://www.sweetheartflute.com), but he retired in 2017. Joseph Morneault (Musique Morneaux: http://musiquemorneaux.com) continues to make many instruments of the same design, but doesn't list the keyed whistle on his Website.

-Brett

The other approach would be to use double holes as on a Recorder.

Since most whistles (in my experience) give good crossfingered C naturals and B flats you would only need doubled holes on these holes:

Hole 6: Eb, E natural
Hole 5: F natural, F sharp
Hole 3: G sharp, A natural
(and not necessary, but if you wished Hole 2: B flat, B natural)

Susato would be a natural (!) maker for these, as they already make recorders, and their whistles have the thick walls that make such things work better.

BTW it's quite amazing how good some players can get at half-holing. The best I've heard is the Asturian gaiteiro Vicente "El Praviano"; you would swear he has a hole drilled for the minor 3rd, or is using a crossfingering, but no, I've seen him play in person and it's half-holing done with exceptional precision.

Horrid accompaniment but a great demonstration of him half-holing the minor 3rd on the gaita:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAfwHdhYMls