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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:28 am 
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whistlecollector wrote:
If a Chinese firm takes lengths of aluminium tubing, drills six holes in them, squares off the business end, sticks a block in there, brushes it up nicely and stamps "OVERTONE" on it, well, that's a knockoff pure and simple!
No, not in that case. What you describe is a counterfeit object, and that's a different field entirely.
As for "knockoff", I feel I have to agree with the latest post by Joe above.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:45 am 
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Tor wrote:
whistlecollector wrote:
If a Chinese firm takes lengths of aluminium tubing, drills six holes in them, squares off the business end, sticks a block in there, brushes it up nicely and stamps "OVERTONE" on it, well, that's a knockoff pure and simple!
No, not in that case. What you describe is a counterfeit object, and that's a different field entirely.
As for "knockoff", I feel I have to agree with the latest post by Joe above.


Fair enough. Six of one, half dozen of the other, as I see it.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:08 am 
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Joe Gerardi wrote:
Why apply it to only Chinese instruments?


Where do you see anyone doing that? Knockoffs are made all over the world, but China and Pakistan in particular have pretty large industries making instruments, some of which fall under the "knockoff" category.

Joe Gerardi wrote:
Can't have it both ways, people- EVERYTHING that isn't the original is a knockoff, or nothing is. Pointing out ONE item as a knockoff is not proper, and infers that it's lower quality for that lower price.


It doesn't "infer" it, that's what it means! And that's fine, if that's what you're looking for. As I've said multiple times, I own some knockoff instruments, and they're great. But I'm under no pretenses that my mandolin sounds and plays like a Gibson, or my ukulele like a Martin. Nor did the "Woodi" whistle I tried play or sound like a Susato. But they're cheaper, and in some cases more hardy or have other good attributes. My grandfather always said that the fake Rolex he bought in the 70s worked better than his actual Rolex!

The MO of companies like the one posted is to take existing designs and manufacture them in a way that brings cost of production down, so that they can either sell them for a lower price or (as seems to be the case with this example) get more profit from each one sold. That's how the business works. More power to them, I think competition is a good thing in the instrument manufacturing world. There are many Chinese companies that actually build their own designs, and have some pretty amazing instruments for not a lot of money. But this company is not one of them, at least judging by what they currently sell (and not just the whistles). I don't think it's being unfair to them to say that they're in the business of making knockoffs, however well-made those knockoffs are.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:35 am 
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bigsciota wrote:
It seems that there's a generic Killarney/Sindt-style whistle out there now, and not cheap either!

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brass-Irish-6-Holes-Whistle-Treble-D-Flute-Feadog-Tin-Whistle-Metal-Pocket-Feadan-Musical-Instrument/32831836084.html

The pictures look fairly high-quality, although they still seem to be unsure which end is the business end (check out the second picture). Honestly, at first I thought that they were just selling Killarneys on AliExpress, maybe for the Chinese market. But a few differences from my own whistle, along with the slightly lower price points towards a knockoff. The blade/windway looks kind of odd as well, almost a wave pattern or something.

As an owner of the real deal, I'd be sort of interested in this one as a novelty/comparison, but the price is way too high. I see no reason whatsoever for anyone to get one of these, since at most you'd be saving about $10. It is curious, though, and either the market for whistles is larger than I thought, or these knockoff companies are getting more and more niche...


Meanwhile, in the UK

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Shearwater-B ... ect=mobile


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:50 am 
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Backhold wrote:

Oh no, that's vastly different. The head is pinned on the bottom rather than the sides. :P

Best wishes.

Steve

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Indeed well spotted Steve, it was wrong of me to impugn the integrity :oops:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 7:16 am 
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The head design is different on the Shearwater. It's similar to the standard alloy Shearwater models. And that in turn is similar to a number of other whistle designs but not a direct knock-off of a Sindt/Killarney. But it is made in a way to look very similar even though the construction itself is different. If that is considered a "knock-off" then every whistle today is a "knock-off" from some 40,000+ years old whistles made from bone in the stone age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_flutes
"oh my -- it has finger holes -- must be a knock-off"
One more thing -- the Shearwater "knock-off" is more expensive than a Killarney (which in istself could be considered a knock-off). Knock-off to me implies: made cheaply with cheaper materials than the original and sold at a much lower price, like a Rolex knock-off for 100 bucks when the original costs around 5,000. To me the whole knock-off-discussion makes not much sense. Reminds me of my watch-collecting-days (and the debate was pretty useless back then too). As long as there is no copyright-infringement, etc, I simply don't care anymore. Because it evolves into a debate about ethics--implying it is somehow morally wrong to base a whistle (or anything really) on some design somebody else used first, even though it is no longer protected by copyright or anything, or the inventor is even already dead. Nothing wrong with using a public domain design. Why invent the wheel anew? And what matters to me when buying a whistle is the sound and not the look. That is IMO very different from other knock-offs like a Rolex knock-off where it's all about the look. Is it considered a knock-off when somebody manages to exactly duplicate the sound of a Sindt but using a completely different design? I think not. Or can you impress people at a session with an Overton-knock-off that sounds bad? So the whole "point" of a knock-off -- buying something that looks really expensive to impress others -- is out the window.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:50 am 
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Sedi wrote:
The head design is different on the Shearwater. It's similar to the standard alloy Shearwater models. And that in turn is similar to a number of other whistle designs but not a direct knock-off of a Sindt/Killarney. But it is made in a way to look very similar even though the construction itself is different. If that is considered a "knock-off" then every whistle today is a "knock-off" from some 40,000+ years old whistles made from bone in the stone age.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_flutes
"oh my -- it has finger holes -- must be a knock-off"
One more thing -- the Shearwater "knock-off" is more expensive than a Killarney (which in istself could be considered a knock-off). Knock-off to me implies: made cheaply with cheaper materials than the original and sold at a much lower price, like a Rolex knock-off for 100 bucks when the original costs around 5,000. To me the whole knock-off-discussion makes not much sense. Reminds me of my watch-collecting-days (and the debate was pretty useless back then too). As long as there is no copyright-infringement, etc, I simply don't care anymore. Because it evolves into a debate about ethics--implying it is somehow morally wrong to base a whistle (or anything really) on some design somebody else used first, even though it is no longer protected by copyright or anything, or the inventor is even already dead. Nothing wrong with using a public domain design. Why invent the wheel anew? And what matters to me when buying a whistle is the sound and not the look. That is IMO very different from other knock-offs like a Rolex knock-off where it's all about the look. Is it considered a knock-off when somebody manages to exactly duplicate the sound of a Sindt but using a completely different design? I think not. Or can you impress people at a session with an Overton-knock-off that sounds bad? So the whole "point" of a knock-off -- buying something that looks really expensive to impress others -- is out the window.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:31 pm 
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:D :party: :pint:


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