Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
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Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
I have two inexpensive D whistles (Clarke Celtic & Walton D). Looking at the Dixon Trad, TJ Potter, or the Freeman Blackbird. Looking for a sweet second octave and perhaps a bit less breathy than the Clarke. And, I just want another whistle or two.
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
Generation, Feadog & Tony Dixon ABS are another three to add to your collection at the lower price range, then maybe a TD brass.
Keith.
Trying to do justice to my various musical instruments.
Trying to do justice to my various musical instruments.
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
You mention "solid" and "sweet".
I usually hear "solid" as meaning "loud" which can be seen as the opposite of "sweet" so I don't know if you'll find these two coexisting in the 2nd octave of a whistle.
The most "solid" 2nd octave that comes to mind is the Burke, loud and bright and clear and pure, but rather stiff, requiring strong support, and not what I would call "sweet".
I love the opposite of the Burke 2nd octave, the facile sweet easy-blowing upper range of whistles like the Sindt, Killarney, and good vintage Feadog and Generation.
About "chiff", I don't know what that word means. Despite playing whistles since the 1970s I'd never heard of "chiff" until I came upon this site.
I usually hear "solid" as meaning "loud" which can be seen as the opposite of "sweet" so I don't know if you'll find these two coexisting in the 2nd octave of a whistle.
The most "solid" 2nd octave that comes to mind is the Burke, loud and bright and clear and pure, but rather stiff, requiring strong support, and not what I would call "sweet".
I love the opposite of the Burke 2nd octave, the facile sweet easy-blowing upper range of whistles like the Sindt, Killarney, and good vintage Feadog and Generation.
About "chiff", I don't know what that word means. Despite playing whistles since the 1970s I'd never heard of "chiff" until I came upon this site.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
Yes, what I'm looking for is "sweet" in the second octave. Granted, I've only played two whistles and have little to compare. I like the sweetness of the Clarke and the volume of the Walton, and I realize alot of this will be breath control, but I've listened to many other recordings of whistlers. I want to be able to play second octave without as much rasp and shrillness. That's one reason I haven't bought a Susato. In recordings they seem shrill.pancelticpiper wrote:You mention "solid" and "sweet".
I usually hear "solid" as meaning "loud" which can be seen as the opposite of "sweet" so I don't know if you'll find these two coexisting in the 2nd octave of a whistle.
The most "solid" 2nd octave that comes to mind is the Burke, loud and bright and clear and pure, but rather stiff, requiring strong support, and not what I would call "sweet".
I love the opposite of the Burke 2nd octave, the facile sweet easy-blowing upper range of whistles like the Sindt, Killarney, and good vintage Feadog and Generation.
About "chiff", I don't know what that word means. Despite playing whistles since the 1970s I'd never heard of "chiff" until I came upon this site.
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
I've heard various definitions of the term, chiff. I'm not quite sure what is it either, but I think in general it means the windy, grainy, hissy sound. My Anak whistles have a pure, non chiffy voice which I like. The Burkes are similar. On the other hand, I used to play a Dixon Trad (brass) low (mezzo) G that was the hissiest whistle I ever played. It's a matter of taste, I suppose.
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
It's clearly defined as a transient at the start of a sound. Despite frequent misunderstanding here, it's not wind, grain, hiss or breathiness, which are more constant and better described as whichever of those words the describer likes.Tyler DelGregg wrote:I'm not quite sure what is it either, but I think in general it means the windy, grainy, hissy sound.
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chiff
Definition of chiff
: the initial sound made by air leaving the mouth of a wind instrument (such as an organ flue pipe or a flute) at the attack (see attack entry 2 sense 5) of a note
"The chiff is a sudden, short-lived burst of upper harmonics that occurs whenever an organ key is depressed and a note is sounded."
—Joel Naumann and James D. Wagoner, Analog Electronic Music Techniques, 1985
Definition of chiff
: the initial sound made by air leaving the mouth of a wind instrument (such as an organ flue pipe or a flute) at the attack (see attack entry 2 sense 5) of a note
"The chiff is a sudden, short-lived burst of upper harmonics that occurs whenever an organ key is depressed and a note is sounded."
—Joel Naumann and James D. Wagoner, Analog Electronic Music Techniques, 1985
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
How's this, then?
Marylin Monroe: Breathy
Vito Corleone: Hissy
Darth Vader: Chiffy
Marylin Monroe: Breathy
Vito Corleone: Hissy
Darth Vader: Chiffy
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
Note that I'm fairly new at this, only having picked up my first whistle about 9 months ago. But I do own the whistles you're asking about. I like all three, but the Dixon Trad is the breathiest among them by a good margin. Not in a bad way, but I don't think it's got the sound you say you're after. I really like the TJ Potter a lot, except that I don't get a good C Nat. using the standard crossfingering. And the mouthpiece feels a bit weird, being more rectangular than anything else I own. But apart from those two issues, the overall playability and tone are outstanding. I would define it is "sweet" and "pure" rather than "breathy" or "edgy".Paul Clayton wrote:I have two inexpensive D whistles (Clarke Celtic & Walton D). Looking at the Dixon Trad, TJ Potter, or the Freeman Blackbird. Looking for a sweet second octave and perhaps a bit less breathy than the Clarke. And, I just want another whistle or two.
But the Freeman Blackbird is perhaps even sweeter and purer, and also has excellent playability across it's range. So I'll recommend that one.
If you're willing to up you're budget, you might also consider the Killarney.
- pancelticpiper
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
Well then, a noise upon the attack of a note on the flute?
Thing is, so often in ITM there's a flow of notes or notes attacked with gracenotes, rather than an independant attack of a note with a sudden rush of air, as happens with each note on a pipe organ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRVG42lGUkY&t=50s
This difference in attack became apparent years ago when I tried a Yamaha wind controller. I was playing up and down the scale, on the flute setting, and blowing on an even breath, yet each note had a burst of volume at the beginning.
I asked the rep about it and he said that it's just the way keyboard patches tend to be, because on keyboard a finger is striking a key. This hammered home the notion of a piano being a percussion instrument!
Anyhow this "chiff" seems to be something that when I try a whistle that does it, I don't buy it.
Thing is, so often in ITM there's a flow of notes or notes attacked with gracenotes, rather than an independant attack of a note with a sudden rush of air, as happens with each note on a pipe organ.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRVG42lGUkY&t=50s
This difference in attack became apparent years ago when I tried a Yamaha wind controller. I was playing up and down the scale, on the flute setting, and blowing on an even breath, yet each note had a burst of volume at the beginning.
I asked the rep about it and he said that it's just the way keyboard patches tend to be, because on keyboard a finger is striking a key. This hammered home the notion of a piano being a percussion instrument!
Anyhow this "chiff" seems to be something that when I try a whistle that does it, I don't buy it.
Last edited by pancelticpiper on Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
Is there a recording/YouTube/sound clip that demonstrates the chiff on a whistle? I probably heard it without recognizing what I was hearing.
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
I have spent most of my working life in and around the pipe organ business, mostly as a voicer. Chiff is the 'noise' produced by organ flue pipes as they settle into speech. Flue pipes are of the same construction as whistles, except the parts have different names.
It can be 'cleaned' out of the sound by various methods, though some 'articulation' as it is often called is left in the speech to define the musical line.
Here's a nice example of articulation or 'chiff' in a mechanical action organ by American builder Lawrence Phelps in Hexham Abbey, Northumberland. This is a single Principle stop being played.
Reg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8llyCW ... 52&index=5
It can be 'cleaned' out of the sound by various methods, though some 'articulation' as it is often called is left in the speech to define the musical line.
Here's a nice example of articulation or 'chiff' in a mechanical action organ by American builder Lawrence Phelps in Hexham Abbey, Northumberland. This is a single Principle stop being played.
Reg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8llyCW ... 52&index=5
"Those who can make you believe absurdities
can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
can make you commit atrocities." - Voltaire
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
Very cool, thanks for that!
It's the thing that makes organs sound authentic and earthy to me, much nicer than synths.
There's a thing sort of like that on the huge panpipes from Bolivia, the toyos.
They're played in a pair, with each musician having every other note of the scale.
Here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fm1QzqCIYU
Here's a studio recording of the same tune; best with headphones to get the split between the two instruments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ7WVdUPmZE
It's the thing that makes organs sound authentic and earthy to me, much nicer than synths.
There's a thing sort of like that on the huge panpipes from Bolivia, the toyos.
They're played in a pair, with each musician having every other note of the scale.
Here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fm1QzqCIYU
Here's a studio recording of the same tune; best with headphones to get the split between the two instruments.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ7WVdUPmZE
Richard Cook
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
c1980 Quinn uilleann pipes
1945 Starck Highland pipes
Goldie Low D whistle
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Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
How long have you been playing? You may find that your current whistles meet those demands with more experience.
Any Jerry Freeman would be a good choice.
Any Jerry Freeman would be a good choice.
Re: Less Chiffy, Solid Second Octave
[quote="Paul Clayton"]I have two inexpensive D whistles (Clarke Celtic & Walton D). Looking at the Dixon Trad, TJ Potter, or the Freeman Blackbird. Looking for a sweet second octave and perhaps a bit less breathy than the Clarke. And, I just want another whistle or two.[/quote]
Of those whistles you mention, I'd say the Freeman Blackbird and the Potter tend to be sweeter in the second octave. For a little more money (roughly twice as much, but still under $100), you can get a Killarney in either brass or nickel.
Of those whistles you mention, I'd say the Freeman Blackbird and the Potter tend to be sweeter in the second octave. For a little more money (roughly twice as much, but still under $100), you can get a Killarney in either brass or nickel.