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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:05 pm 
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I have two inexpensive D whistles (Clarke Celtic & Walton D). Looking at the Dixon Trad, TJ Potter, or the Freeman Blackbird. Looking for a sweet second octave and perhaps a bit less breathy than the Clarke. And, I just want another whistle or two.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:01 am 
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Generation, Feadog & Tony Dixon ABS are another three to add to your collection at the lower price range, then maybe a TD brass. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:09 am 
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You mention "solid" and "sweet".

I usually hear "solid" as meaning "loud" which can be seen as the opposite of "sweet" so I don't know if you'll find these two coexisting in the 2nd octave of a whistle.

The most "solid" 2nd octave that comes to mind is the Burke, loud and bright and clear and pure, but rather stiff, requiring strong support, and not what I would call "sweet".

I love the opposite of the Burke 2nd octave, the facile sweet easy-blowing upper range of whistles like the Sindt, Killarney, and good vintage Feadog and Generation.


About "chiff", I don't know what that word means. Despite playing whistles since the 1970s I'd never heard of "chiff" until I came upon this site.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:55 am 
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pancelticpiper wrote:
You mention "solid" and "sweet".

I usually hear "solid" as meaning "loud" which can be seen as the opposite of "sweet" so I don't know if you'll find these two coexisting in the 2nd octave of a whistle.

The most "solid" 2nd octave that comes to mind is the Burke, loud and bright and clear and pure, but rather stiff, requiring strong support, and not what I would call "sweet".

I love the opposite of the Burke 2nd octave, the facile sweet easy-blowing upper range of whistles like the Sindt, Killarney, and good vintage Feadog and Generation.


About "chiff", I don't know what that word means. Despite playing whistles since the 1970s I'd never heard of "chiff" until I came upon this site.


Yes, what I'm looking for is "sweet" in the second octave. Granted, I've only played two whistles and have little to compare. I like the sweetness of the Clarke and the volume of the Walton, and I realize alot of this will be breath control, but I've listened to many other recordings of whistlers. I want to be able to play second octave without as much rasp and shrillness. That's one reason I haven't bought a Susato. In recordings they seem shrill.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:23 am 
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I've heard various definitions of the term, chiff. I'm not quite sure what is it either, but I think in general it means the windy, grainy, hissy sound. My Anak whistles have a pure, non chiffy voice which I like. The Burkes are similar. On the other hand, I used to play a Dixon Trad (brass) low (mezzo) G that was the hissiest whistle I ever played. It's a matter of taste, I suppose.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:45 am 
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Tyler DelGregg wrote:
I'm not quite sure what is it either, but I think in general it means the windy, grainy, hissy sound.

It's clearly defined as a transient at the start of a sound. Despite frequent misunderstanding here, it's not wind, grain, hiss or breathiness, which are more constant and better described as whichever of those words the describer likes.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:05 am 
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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chiff

Definition of chiff

: the initial sound made by air leaving the mouth of a wind instrument (such as an organ flue pipe or a flute) at the attack (see attack entry 2 sense 5) of a note

"The chiff is a sudden, short-lived burst of upper harmonics that occurs whenever an organ key is depressed and a note is sounded."
—Joel Naumann and James D. Wagoner, Analog Electronic Music Techniques, 1985

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:22 am 
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How's this, then?

Marylin Monroe: Breathy

Vito Corleone: Hissy

Darth Vader: Chiffy


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Paul Clayton wrote:
I have two inexpensive D whistles (Clarke Celtic & Walton D). Looking at the Dixon Trad, TJ Potter, or the Freeman Blackbird. Looking for a sweet second octave and perhaps a bit less breathy than the Clarke. And, I just want another whistle or two.


Note that I'm fairly new at this, only having picked up my first whistle about 9 months ago. But I do own the whistles you're asking about. I like all three, but the Dixon Trad is the breathiest among them by a good margin. Not in a bad way, but I don't think it's got the sound you say you're after. I really like the TJ Potter a lot, except that I don't get a good C Nat. using the standard crossfingering. And the mouthpiece feels a bit weird, being more rectangular than anything else I own. But apart from those two issues, the overall playability and tone are outstanding. I would define it is "sweet" and "pure" rather than "breathy" or "edgy".

But the Freeman Blackbird is perhaps even sweeter and purer, and also has excellent playability across it's range. So I'll recommend that one.

If you're willing to up you're budget, you might also consider the Killarney.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:50 pm 
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Well then, a noise upon the attack of a note on the flute?

Thing is, so often in ITM there's a flow of notes or notes attacked with gracenotes, rather than an independant attack of a note with a sudden rush of air, as happens with each note on a pipe organ.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRVG42lGUkY&t=50s

This difference in attack became apparent years ago when I tried a Yamaha wind controller. I was playing up and down the scale, on the flute setting, and blowing on an even breath, yet each note had a burst of volume at the beginning.

I asked the rep about it and he said that it's just the way keyboard patches tend to be, because on keyboard a finger is striking a key. This hammered home the notion of a piano being a percussion instrument!

Anyhow this "chiff" seems to be something that when I try a whistle that does it, I don't buy it.

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Last edited by pancelticpiper on Thu Sep 20, 2018 4:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:33 am 
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Is there a recording/YouTube/sound clip that demonstrates the chiff on a whistle? I probably heard it without recognizing what I was hearing.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:29 am 
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I have spent most of my working life in and around the pipe organ business, mostly as a voicer. Chiff is the 'noise' produced by organ flue pipes as they settle into speech. Flue pipes are of the same construction as whistles, except the parts have different names.

It can be 'cleaned' out of the sound by various methods, though some 'articulation' as it is often called is left in the speech to define the musical line.

Here's a nice example of articulation or 'chiff' in a mechanical action organ by American builder Lawrence Phelps in Hexham Abbey, Northumberland. This is a single Principle stop being played.

Reg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8llyCW ... 52&index=5

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:02 am 
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Very cool, thanks for that!

It's the thing that makes organs sound authentic and earthy to me, much nicer than synths.

There's a thing sort of like that on the huge panpipes from Bolivia, the toyos.

They're played in a pair, with each musician having every other note of the scale.

Here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fm1QzqCIYU

Here's a studio recording of the same tune; best with headphones to get the split between the two instruments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ7WVdUPmZE

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:16 am 
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How long have you been playing? You may find that your current whistles meet those demands with more experience.
Any Jerry Freeman would be a good choice.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:25 pm 
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[quote="Paul Clayton"]I have two inexpensive D whistles (Clarke Celtic & Walton D). Looking at the Dixon Trad, TJ Potter, or the Freeman Blackbird. Looking for a sweet second octave and perhaps a bit less breathy than the Clarke. And, I just want another whistle or two.[/quote]

Of those whistles you mention, I'd say the Freeman Blackbird and the Potter tend to be sweeter in the second octave. For a little more money (roughly twice as much, but still under $100), you can get a Killarney in either brass or nickel.


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