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PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:46 am 
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They may have been the same at one time, but they are spaced differently in my examples. Also the tube on the Feadog is thicker-walled, according to my digital caliper, which unfortunately has a dead battery and isn't reading out any numbers this morning. It's also unfinished at the end, while the tube end on the Killarney has been nicely rounded and ground smooth.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:03 pm 
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Very interesting! You can see that the nickel Killarney tube has had the holes enlarged after it was plated.

And even without that, the holes on both the brass and nickel Killarney tubes have the look of hand-enlarged holes, which I'm familiar with because I've done that to several of my own whistles.

BTW my Killarney didn't have the holes enlarged but did have the bottom cut shorter, once again after the plating. The holes had been made before the plating.

These things do suggest that Killarney had got those nickel-plated tubes somewhere, then modified them.

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Last edited by pancelticpiper on Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:08 pm 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:

I don't believe that issue is at play here at all Richard. I hope you're not suggesting it is.


I am not, but it seemed that others had brought up that topic. I was just saying that it has been known to happen with bagpipes.

I myself never had reason to question that Killarneys were made in Ireland, in a small workshop.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:53 pm 
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PB+J wrote:
The Oak and Feadog whisetles I have both say "made in Ireland," but I can't find any evidence of a Feadog factory.


http://www.feadog.ie/index.php?route=common/home

FWIW From their web site if you do not care to click and read it. I only share this information and do not present for dabate/argument.

''The Feadóg original Irish whistle has been and continues to be manufactured in Ireland since 1978 and is now sold in more than 20 countries worldwide. All Feadóg products are barcoded and feature attractive Celtic, modern imagery. The Feadóg Irish Tin Whistle is the ideal Irish gift for people of all ages!''


FEADÓG TEORANTA
8 The Westway Centre, Ballymount Avenue, Dublin 12, D12 E899 Ireland
+353 1 456 9533
whistles@feadog.ie

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Last edited by Tommy on Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:44 am 
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I was just saying that it has been known to happen with bagpipes.


I really don't want to go on about this but your example is one of fraudulent selling of someone else's product as one's own where the OP suggested outsourcing some (or all) of the parts and assembling them, which is a legitimate process. I am saying these are very different things. If you want to find something like the issue as brought up by the OP in pipemaking, it would be for example makers buying in bags from Jackie Boyce or Kelleher trad rather than making their own. Which is common practice and nobody will (or does) mind it at all. That's a good analogy but I think you should be careful here comparing the issue at hand, and in extension Killarney whistles, with fraudulent practice and suggest it's the same issue. It isn't, not by a country mile.

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 Post subject: An
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:56 am 
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Tommy wrote:
PB+J wrote:
The Oak and Feadog whisetles I have both say "made in Ireland," but I can't find any evidence of a Feadog factory.


http://www.feadog.ie/index.php?route=common/home

FEADÓG TEORANTA
8 The Westway Centre, Ballymount Avenue, Dublin 12, D12 E899 Ireland
+353 1 456 9533
whistles@feadog.ie


Just playing devil's advocate here - but what makes you think that's a manufacturing plant? It's definitely not a steel works with high furnaces and everything...

But I don't quite understand the issue: Does anybody really expect a whistle manufacturer to produce their own brass and nickel tubing? Or Clarke to actually manufacture their own sheet metal? I'd have considered it a given that the tubes are bought in, just like wood workers buy their wood. (Makers who work with Delrin don't have their own chemical factory, do they?)

If you want an object made from locally-found iron ore that's been transformed into steel in a home-built low furnace fired with home-made charcoal - then I can put you in contact with a knife-maker friend. I'm pretty sure that he still has the two knives he made for pleasure early in his career because he put them for sale at € 2500 each in order to get anything approximating a fair hourly wage. The knives he nowadays makes for sale (at around € 100 - 200), he makes from scrap metal. And they are lovely knives...

The point being: In many cases working from scratch only serves to increase the price. Who cares where the tubes for the whistles come from, as long as holes of the correct size are drilled in the correct place (personally I don't even care where the holes are drilled), the mouthpiece is well made (and a shape I like) and either put in the perfect position or easily adjustable, and the finished whistle tested to ensure good quality.


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 Post subject: Re: An
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:38 am 
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Kade1301 wrote:
Tommy wrote:
PB+J wrote:
The Oak and Feadog whisetles I have both say "made in Ireland," but I can't find any evidence of a Feadog factory.


http://www.feadog.ie/index.php?route=common/home

FEADÓG TEORANTA
8 The Westway Centre, Ballymount Avenue, Dublin 12, D12 E899 Ireland
+353 1 456 9533
whistles@feadog.ie


Just playing devil's advocate here - but what makes you think that's a manufacturing plant? It's definitely not a steel works with high furnaces and everything...

But I don't quite understand the issue: Does anybody really expect a whistle manufacturer to produce their own brass and nickel tubing? Or Clarke to actually manufacture their own sheet metal? I'd have considered it a given that the tubes are bought in, just like wood workers buy their wood. (Makers who work with Delrin don't have their own chemical factory, do they?)

If you want an object made from locally-found iron ore that's been transformed into steel in a home-built low furnace fired with home-made charcoal - then I can put you in contact with a knife-maker friend. I'm pretty sure that he still has the two knives he made for pleasure early in his career because he put them for sale at € 2500 each in order to get anything approximating a fair hourly wage. The knives he nowadays makes for sale (at around € 100 - 200), he makes from scrap metal. And they are lovely knives...

The point being: In many cases working from scratch only serves to increase the price. Who cares where the tubes for the whistles come from, as long as holes of the correct size are drilled in the correct place (personally I don't even care where the holes are drilled), the mouthpiece is well made (and a shape I like) and either put in the perfect position or easily adjustable, and the finished whistle tested to ensure good quality.



I was only asking because I don't know, and was wondering if anyone did. It' not unreasonable that a whistle maker might source tubes from somewhere, and then drill them. Or source them predrilled, and assemble them. Feadog may be injection molding mouthpieces at that factory, or maybe they outsource injection molded mouthpieces. Maybe that plant is just a packing and shipping house.


Here we are playing music, a very old fashioned pursuit that involves an intense craftsman-like connection between the person and a physical object, a tool, which he or she tries to master. That kind of direct one-to-one relationship is fairly rare in modern life. It doesn't seem unreasonable to want to know how the objects are made. I don't expect them to be drawing their own tubes, no.

It's pretty clear from my nickel Killarney that the holes are drilled after plating, and it's possible they were enlarged after drilliing. A lot of attention was paid to the delrin head and the finish on the underside of the fipple plug. There seems to have been a high level of attention to detail all around. I'm very pleased with both.

As a guy who makes his living as a historian, interested in the history of technology, I'd love to know how the Buckleys manage to balance attention to detail/craft/tradition and the demands of an international marketplace. The whole business of producing traditional folk instruments for a modern customer base is interesting. I'll ask them, but they might be understandably reluctant to talk about details of their business


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 Post subject: Re: An
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:09 am 
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PB+J wrote:
...I'd love to know how the Buckleys manage to balance attention to detail/craft/tradition and the demands of an international marketplace. ...


You've said it yourself: Attention to detail. Paying attention and doing something right/well the first time is faster than making mistakes and having to start over. The secret of good craftsmanship is knowing what one is doing, and working with confidence, fast and surely.

I'm also willing to bet that the whistles are produced in series: They don't cut off a piece of tube, drill holes into it, round off the edges, make the mouthpiece (however it is made - the mouthpiece is the true mystery of Killarney whistles for me), put the mouthpiece on the tube, testplay. Depending on the size of their business, they'll cut off 10, or 50, or 100 pies of tube, drill then all the holes, and so on.

That's the production side, based on my experience with traditional crafts (I generally don't put the warp for one piece on the loom, and my handspindles are made 10 or 20 at once. My friend forges a whole series of blades and then he adds the handles...).

As for "the demands of the international marketplace" - they meet that with a static english-language web site, Paypal and the help of the world's postal services (I suppose). Seems like a brilliantly simple system, not very time-consuming at all (and they even built in quite a security margin for delivery times).

I don't see much "balancing" required - even when you add in that they run a music school.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:11 am 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
your example is one of fraudulent selling of someone else's product as one's own where the OP suggested outsourcing some (or all) of the parts and assembling them, which is a legitimate process. I am saying these are very different things.


Well to quote the OP

I'm thinking "assembled in Ireland." As in "boxes of tubes and heads arrive from China and are assembled in Ireland."

There being no other components to whistles other than the head and the tube, this is saying that the whistle is entirely made in China and the only thing done in Ireland is sticking the head onto the tube.

Which is the same as with the bagpipes, as they arrive from Pakistan disassembled (wholly, or partly). The Canadian guy assembled them and sold them as being made by himself.

It's not a clear-cut thing, for example the Gaida that I got from Kostadin Varimezov back in the 1980s. I was told that Kostadin had a tuner bore and turn the wooden parts, the chanter, drone, and stocks. Kostadin made the reeds and voiced the chanter (undercutting holes etc) and made the bag and tied in the pipes. What Kostadin received from the turner were pieces of wood, what Kostadin produced was a beautifully-playing musical instrument. Kostadin stamped his initials on the chanter and no-one questioned that it was a Kostadin Varimezov instrument.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:29 am 
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(however it is made - the mouthpiece is the true mystery of Killarney whistles for me)


Well, they follow the design by John Sindt who, in an interview on the original C&F main site, said he designed something that would be easily reproduced (and that from his perspective, as a man who worked making scientific instruments for a large part of his life. A skilled machinist used to working to very narrow tolerances, I would assume. As well a being a by all accounts fine whistleplayer) without taking hours to make, thus keeping cost in line.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:38 am 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
...

Well, they follow the design by John Sindt who ... said he designed something that would be easily reproduced ...


But how? Inquiring mind wants to know... There's the brass tube cut away in a nicely rounded shape on the bottom and the window cut out at the top with bevelled ramp, a black plastic (Delrin?) tube following the brass shape on the bottom and the "block" made from a rod of the same black material, also following the shape.

The way I see it, it must go something like this (this is purely my theory, based on looking at my whistle):

Materials/components: nickel or brass tubing for the barrel, brass tubing for the head (which by the way has a "ledge" inside so you can't push the head too far down), plastic tubing for the "outside" of the mouthpiece (around the brass tube), plastic rod for the block (inside the brass tube).

Operations: Cutting barrel to correct length, drilling holes, rounding off edges. Cutting brass tubing to length, possibly reaming it out to outer diameter of barrel, cutting out windway, bevelling the ramp, cutting shape of the mouthpiece. Cutting plastic tubing and plastic rod to length and shape. Riveting (glueing?) head together. Smoothing the edges/transitions between materials. (My apologies to any metal workers here if my terminology is off - it's decades since I learnt it.)

I dare say that even if the barrel tubes come ready-cut, holes drilled and finished there's still a lot of work to do for the head. Which of course could be outsourced as well... (and by the way, "Made in Ireland" in no way means "Made by the Buckley brothers in their workshop in Killarney")

In any case, it's a beautifully made whistle and I feel really bad that I just can't love mine...


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 9:49 am 
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But how? Inquiring mind wants to know... There's the brass tube cut away in a nicely rounded shape on the bottom and the window cut out at the top with bevelled ramp, a black plastic (Delrin?) tube following the brass shape on the bottom and the "block" made from a rod of the same black material, also following the shape.


Three pieces pinned together for the head, very clever and elegantly simple way of doing it.

For the newcomer whistlers on this thread: Spot the differences (or the similarities). A Killarney on nickel tube and a John Sindt in brass, front and side view.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 12:24 pm 
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Every time I take a good, hard look at the Killarney, I am reminded of what a bargain it is for such a well made, first rate instrument. It fits right up there with whistles triple its price. Then again, whether it becomes your favorite whistle is based on many factors. However, its construction is magnificently simple and effective.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:23 am 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
....

Three pieces pinned together for the head, very clever and elegantly simple way of doing it.


Yes, while I wrote my post I realized this. And afterwards it occurred to me that one would pin the pieces together first and cut the rounded shape afterwards, for all three together. Should only take minutes, as long as everything is the correct diameter and fits together.

Mr.Gumby wrote:
For the newcomer whistlers on this thread: Spot the differences (or the similarities). A Killarney on nickel tube and a John Sindt in brass, front and side view.



As you said, they run out of rivets when they made your Killarney ;) And if Bloomfield is to be believed (http://members.the-spa.com/~bloomfield/GenSindt.html), the Sindt head is for a tube of 1/2 inch outer diameter (12.7 mm), the Killarney for a 13 mm tube. Which means the Killarney head fits on a Feadog body without sanding it down (tested). Which doesn't help me because I don't particularly like the mouthpiece...

Is the ramp on the Sindt a bit smoother? I notice that my Killarney has pronounced edges to it, and I've heard that the ramp is the all-important piece where micrometers count.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:44 am 
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Yes, while I wrote my post I realized this


I have a 1970s French made Camac whistle which has a plastic injection molded head but it's a two part design, you can push out the plug. John Sindt's design is very similar in that respect : tube with window cut, plug that also form the bottom of the windway, but he added a delrin outer layer for the beak so you wouldn't have to put brass in your mouth.

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Is the ramp on the Sindt a bit smoother? I notice that my Killarney has pronounced edges to it, and I've heard that the ramp is the all-important piece where micrometers count.


John Sindt is the consummate craftsman. He appears to use a narrower tool for cutting than Killarney. Which makes the ramp slightly smoother but takes that little bit longer. Not sure it makes an awful lot of difference. Mind you. at time of purchase I spent 50% more on his whistle than I did on the Killarney (€90 new for the Sindt against €60 for the Killarney) but it does show in the finish. And taking the two out together (for the photo above), I once again was a bit queasy about how they ran with the Sindt design for their own whistle but it works and I'd look at the Killarney as a nice little workhorse. I have heard the Killarney referred to as the Poor Man's Sindt.

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As you said, they run out of rivets when they made your Killarney


Yes, great attention to detail indeed :P.
Seriously though, I would need to see more of their recent work to give an informed, solid opinion but they seem to have upped their game since.

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