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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:06 am 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
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The difference between the 2 nickel versions are immediately obvious to sight and feel.


Not to me, obviously. Although i am comparing plain brass, nickel and painted (pro) versions of the tube, visually. So there may be an element of apples and oranges there. The head, the important part, doesn't appear different at all.


That's what I'm getting at, you may be over compensating the effect of the black coating.

Also, if external diameters are same so that the heads are perfectly exchangeable, then the pro version, having a thicker wall, results in a smaller inner bore diameter. Whilst a smaller bore is not always beneficial, many people on this forum seem to think that modern Feadogs and Generations are too loud and needs a bit more sweetness.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:21 am 
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Regrettably I don't have a standard nickel D version with me right now, but here is a comparison of the

Stardard C tube, Pro D tube, Standard D brass tube

https://imgur.com/L6uTImV

I think the picture speaks for itself.

The two outer D tubes align perfectly opening to opening - so there is most likely a difference in inner bore diameter. If the physics of acoustics is to be trusted, this should [on average], cause a difference.

Whether a player can feel the difference is quite another thing. We humans are such great negative feedback systems that any small improvement (or deterioration) is hard to detect. This phenomenon is more so with better players who are skilled enough to be able to unconsciously micro-adjust their blowing patterns.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:07 pm 
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There is definitely a difference in wall thicknesses in the photo Joshua posted, but it is quite small. I don't really see how the tube being maybe a millimeter thicker would make a huge difference in the tonal qualities of a whistle. Maybe I just need to buy a Pro and see if I can detect any real differences.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:15 pm 
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As I said, in my case things aren't so clear :

Image

LtoR : Feadóg nickel, Feadóg Pro black over brass, Feadóg brass. All Ds.


Quote:
many people on this forum seem to think that modern Feadogs and Generations are too loud and needs a bit more sweetness.


While that is probably true, that isn't really an matter of bore size. The tube size used for Ds have been established for quite some time, at least a century. Generation has been very consistent in their tube design for the D and today's aren't any different from the ones used in Victorian times. The C is, off the top of my head, the only one in the range that has seen a considerable increase in tube diameter, that, however, occurred possibly over 50 years ago. It's the changes in head design that have driven the changes towards louder instruments.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Those 3 look the same to me. If anything the nickel one looks thicker, but it may be the lighting. But doesnt the fipple design have more influence on the sound?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:07 pm 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
As I said, in my case things aren't so clear :

Feadóg nickel, Feadóg Pro black over brass, Feadóg brass. All Ds.


Hi Peter, sorry to be asking this. It seems that Hobgoblin and BigWhistle both lists the Feadog Pro Black as having nickel plate, which is what makes it thicker in the first place. (same as the plain pro nickel version) Is it at all possible that yours might be a now Feadog Standard Black sold in the branding of a Feadog Pro Black? If not the black Pro and the plain Pro seems to be quite different beasts.

Regarding the narrow bore - like I said, narrow bore on the nickel pro is certain not universally good, but the pro D is a cheaply available choice to people who want sweeter whistles. Yes sweetness can be achieved via a number of different methods, but why should head design be the only way forward for these Generation-family whistles? (The goal here is not to go back to mk I, but to achieve a nice playing whistle.) I personally both use a Pro and also tweaked my whistle head to achieve my preferred playing characteristics.

That being said the most practical reason for choosing my pro D over the standard nickel versions is because the standard thin brass version deforms quite easily. I wanted a Gen style whistle that I can carry everyday and put anywhere.


Last edited by joshuaZ on Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:31 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:15 pm 
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Dan A. wrote:
There is definitely a difference in wall thicknesses in the photo Joshua posted, but it is quite small. I don't really see how the tube being maybe a millimeter thicker would make a huge difference in the tonal qualities of a whistle. Maybe I just need to buy a Pro and see if I can detect any real differences.


The sound difference is not a huge - just something I personally appreciate on certain occasions.
Mr. Bracker has a great article on quality factor and bore size here: https://www.music.bracker.co/Music/Sear ... -Bore.html
His session bore and normal bore varies by 1mm.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:32 pm 
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If I'm interpreting the graph correctly, Mister Bracker feels the ideal diameter for a soprano D whistle is around 11 millimeters...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 9:31 pm 
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13 mm, the red line. Additional background in this thread.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:17 pm 
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Tunborough wrote:
13 mm, the red line.

You're correct; I certainly did interpret the graph incorrectly. The keys of the whistles following the curve, rather than aligned in a column at the far left, threw me off.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:10 am 
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AuLoS303 wrote:
If anything the nickel one looks thicker, but it may be the lighting.


The nickel tubes are nickel plating over brass, surely. It stands to reason they'd be thicker than plain or painted brass.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:57 am 
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Quote:
Is it at all possible that yours might be a now Feadog Standard Black sold in the branding of a Feadog Pro Black?


It may well be possible and it looks that way BUT it came from Feadóg through their website, was sold as a Pro by them, had the attending blurb (heavier tube, needs more breathcontrol yadda yadda) and is stickered up as a 'Feadóg Pro'. Probably boxed as a Pro too but I don't remember that. It never felt or looked anything different than a run of the mill Feadóg to me. If it is supposed to do what is says on the tin, it doesn't.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:16 am 
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If anybody has calipers could we find out about the bores?

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:59 am 
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All of the ones I looked at (the three in the picture above plus two nickel ones for a larger sample) are the same: if |I read it correctly, 12.2 mm, 13 mm outside.

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Last edited by Mr.Gumby on Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:54 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:13 am 
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s1m0n wrote:
AuLoS303 wrote:
If anything the nickel one looks thicker, but it may be the lighting.


The nickel tubes are nickel plating over brass, surely. It stands to reason they'd be thicker than plain or painted brass.

The nickel plating is a thick over-layer, indeed. But I'm taking away two main points from this discussion: the nickel plating does not have a discernable impact on the sound, and the diameters of both tubes, with no finish on them, appear to be identical.

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